About – Don’t Marry Career Women
Guys: A word of advice. Marry pretty women or ugly ones. Short ones or tall ones. Blondes or brunettes. Just, whatever you do, don’t marry a woman with a career.
Why? Because if many social scientists are to be believed, you run a higher risk of having a rocky marriage. While everyone knows that marriage can be stressful, recent studies have found professional women are more likely to get divorced, more likely to cheat, less likely to have children, and, if they do have kids, they are more likely to be unhappy about it. A recent study in Social Forces, a research journal, found that women–even those with a “feminist” outlook–are happier when their husband is the primary breadwinner.
Not a happy conclusion, especially given that many men, particularly successful men, are attracted to women with similar goals and aspirations. And why not? After all, your typical career girl is well-educated, ambitious, informed and engaged. All seemingly good things, right? Sure…at least until you get married. Then, to put it bluntly, the more successful she is the more likely she is to grow dissatisfied with you. Sound familiar?
Many factors contribute to a stable marriage, including the marital status of your spouse’s parents (folks with divorced parents are significantly more likely to get divorced themselves), age at first marriage, race, religious beliefs and socio-economic status. And, of course, many working women are indeed happily and fruitfully married–it’s just that they are less likely to be so than non-working women. And that, statistically speaking, is the rub.
To be clear, we’re not talking about a high-school dropout minding a cash register. For our purposes, a “career girl” has a university-level (or higher) education, works more than 35 hours a week outside the home and makes more than $30,000 a year.
If a host of studies are to be believed, marrying these women is asking for trouble. If they quit their jobs and stay home with the kids, they will be unhappy ( Journal of Marriage and Family, 2003). They will be unhappy if they make more money than you do ( Social Forces, 2006). You will be unhappy if they make more money than you do ( Journal of Marriage and Family, 2001). You will be more likely to fall ill ( American Journal of Sociology). Even your house will be dirtier ( Institute for Social Research).
Why? Well, despite the fact that the link between work, women and divorce rates is complex and controversial, much of the reasoning is based on a lot of economic theory and a bit of common sense. In classic economics, a marriage is, at least in part, an exercise in labor specialization. Traditionally men have tended to do “market” or paid work outside the home and women have tended to do “non-market” or household work, including raising children. All of the work must get done by somebody, and this pairing, regardless of who is in the home and who is outside the home, accomplishes that goal. Nobel laureate Gary S. Becker argued that when the labor specialization in a marriage decreases–if, for example, both spouses have careers–the overall value of the marriage is lower for both partners because less of the total needed work is getting done, making life harder for both partners and divorce more likely. And, indeed, empirical studies have concluded just that.
In 2004, John H. Johnson examined data from the Survey of Income and Program Participation and concluded that gender has a significant influence on the relationship between work hours and increases in the probability of divorce. Women’s work hours consistently increase divorce, whereas increases in men’s work hours often have no statistical effect. “I also find that the incidence in divorce is far higher in couples where both spouses are working than in couples where only one spouse is employed,” Johnson says. A few other studies, which have focused on employment (as opposed to working hours) have concluded that working outside the home actually increases marital stability, at least when the marriage is a happy one. But even in these studies, wives’ employment does correlate positively to divorce rates, when the marriage is of “low marital quality.”
The other reason a career can hurt a marriage will be obvious to anyone who has seen their mate run off with a co-worker: When your spouse works outside the home, chances increase they’ll meet someone they like more than you. “The work environment provides a host of potential partners,” researcher Adrian J. Blow reported in the Journal of Marital and Family Therapy, “and individuals frequently find themselves spending a great deal of time with these individuals.”
There’s more: According to a wide-ranging review of the published literature, highly educated people are more likely to have had extra-marital sex (those with graduate degrees are 1.75 more likely to have cheated than those with high school diplomas.) Additionally, individuals who earn more than $30,000 a year are more likely to cheat.
And if the cheating leads to divorce, you’re really in trouble. Divorce has been positively correlated with higher rates of alcoholism, clinical depression and suicide. Other studies have associated divorce with increased rates of cancer, stroke, and sexually-transmitted disease. Plus divorce is financially devastating. According to one recent study on “Marriage and Divorce’s Impact on Wealth,” published in The Journal of Sociology, divorced people see their overall net worth drop an average of 77%.
So why not just stay single? Because, academically speaking, a solid marriage has a host of benefits beyond just individual “happiness.” There are broader social and health implications as well. According to a 2004 paper entitled “What Do Social Scientists Know About the Benefits of Marriage?” marriage is positively associated with “better outcomes for children under most circumstances,” higher earnings for adult men, and “being married and being in a satisfying marriage are positively associated with health and negatively associated with mortality.” In other words, a good marriage is associated with a higher income, a longer, healthier life and better-adjusted kids.
A word of caution, though: As with any social scientific study, it’s important not to confuse correlation with causation. In other words, just because married folks are healthier than single people, it doesn’t mean that marriage is causing the health gains. It could just be that healthier people are more likely to be married.
1. You are less likely to get married to her.
So say Lee A. Lillard and Linda J. Waite of the University of Michigan’s Michigan Retirement Research Center. In a paper, “Marriage, Divorce and the Work and Earnings Careers of Spouses”, published in April, 2000, they found that for white women, higher earnings, more hours of employment and higher wages while single all reduce the chances of marriage. “This suggests that (1) success in the labor market makes it harder for women to make a marital match, (2) women with relatively high wages and earnings search less intensively for a match, or (3) successful women have higher standards for an acceptable match than women who work less and earn less.” Some research suggests the opposite is true for black women.
Source: “Marriage, Divorce and the Work and Earnings Careers of Spouses,” Lee A. Lillard, Linda J. Waite, University of Michigan, Michigan Retirement Research Center, Working Papers, April, 2000.
2. If you do marry, you are more likely to get divorced.
In 2004, John H. Johnson examined data from the Survey of Income and Program Participation and concluded that gender has a significant influence on the relationship between work hours and increases in the probability of divorce. Women’s work hours consistently increase divorce, whereas increases in men’s work hours often have no statistical effect. “I also find that the incidence in divorce is far higher in couples where both spouses are working than in couples where only one spouse is employed,” Johnson said. A few other studies, which have focused on employment (as opposed to working hours) have concluded that working outside the home actually increases marital stability, at least when the marriage is a happy one. But even in these studies, wives’ employment does correlate positively to divorce rates, when the marriage is of “low marital quality.”
Sources: “A Treatise On The Family,” Gary S. Becker, Harvard University Press, 1981; “Do Long Work Hours Contribute To Divorce?” John H. Johnson, Topics in Economic Analysis and Policy, 2004; “Wives’ Employment and Spouses’ Marital Happiness,” Robert Schoen, Stacy J. Rogers, Paul R. Amato, Journal of Family Issues, April 2006.
3. She is more likely to cheat on you.
According to a wide-ranging review of the published literature, highly educated people are more likely to have had extra-marital sex (those with graduate degrees are 1.75 more likely to have cheated than those with high school diplomas.) One April, 2005 study, by Adrian J. Blow for the Journal of Marital and Family Therapy summed it up: “If a woman has more education than her partner, she is more likely to have a sexual relationship outside of her primary relationship; if her husband has more education, she is less likely to engage in infidelity.” Additionally individuals who earn more than $30,000 a year are more likely to cheat. “In a more general sense, it appears that employment has significantly influenced infidelity over the years,” Blow said. “The work environment provides a host of potential partners, and individuals frequently find themselves spending a great deal of time with these individuals.”
Source: “Infidelity in Committed Relationships II: A Substantive Review,” Adrian J. Blow, Journal of Marital and Family Therapy, April 2005.
4. You are much less likely to have kids.
According to the National Marriage Project, the incidence of childlessness is growing across the socioeconomic scale. In 2004, 20% of women over 40 remained childless. Thirty years ago that figure was 10%. But the problem–and it is a problem because the vast majority of women desire children–is much more extreme for career women. According to Sylvia Ann Hewlett, an economist and the author of Creating a Life: Professional Women and the Quest for Children, only 51% of ultra-achieving women (those earning more than $100,000 a year) have had children by age 40. Among comparable men, the figure was 81%. A third of less successful working women (earning either $55,000 or $65,000) were also childless at age 40.
Sources: The State of Our Unions 2006: Life Without Children, The National Marriage Project, July 2006. Creating a Life: Professional Women and the Quest for Children, Sylvia Ann Hewlett, Miramax Books, 2002.
5. If you do have kids, your wife is more likely to be unhappy.
A 2003 study published in the Journal of Marriage and Family concluded that wealthier couples with children suffer a drop in marital satisfaction three times as great as their less affluent peers. One of the study’s co-authors publicly speculated that the reason is that wealthier women are used to “a professional life, a fun, active, entertaining life.”
Sources: “Parenthood and Martial Satisfaction: A Meta-Analytic Review,” Jean M. Twenge, W. Keith Campbell, and Craig A. Foster, Journal of Marriage and Family, 2003; “Money doesn’t mean happy parenting,” USA Today, July 21, 2003.
6. Your house will be dirtier.
In 2005, two University of Michigan scientists concluded that if your wife has a job earning more than $15 an hour (roughly $30,000 a year), she will do 1.9 hours less housework a week. Of course, this can be solved if the husband picks up a broom.
Source: “Data Quality of Housework Hours in the Panel Study of Income Dynamics: Who Really Does The Dishes?”, Alexandra C. Achen and Frank P. Stafford, Institute for Social Research, University of Michigan, September 2005.
7. You’ll be unhappy if she makes more than you.
You aren’t going to like it if she makes more than you do: “Married men’s well-being is significantly lower when married women’s proportional contributions to the total family income are increased.”
Source: “Changes in Wives’ Income: Effects on Marital Happiness, Psychological Well-Being, and the Risk of Divorce,” Stacy J. Rogers, Danelle D. DeBoer, Journal of Marriage and Family, May 2001
8. She will be unhappy if she makes more than you.
According to the authors of a controversial 2006 study: “American wives, even wives who hold more feminist views about working women and the division of household tasks, are typically happier when their husband earns 68% or more of the household income.” Reason? “Husbands who are successful breadwinners probably give their wives the opportunity to make more choices about work and family–e.g., working part-time, staying home, or pursuing a meaningful but not particularly remunerative job.”
Sources: What’s Love Got To Do With It? W. Bradford Wilcox, Steven L. Nock, Social Forces, March, 2006; www.happiestwives.org.
9. You are more likely to fall ill.
A 2001 study found that having a wife who works less than 40 hours a week has no impact on your health, but having a wife who works more than 40 hours a week has “substantial, statistically significant, negative effects on changes in her husband’s health over that time span.” The author of another study summarizes that “wives working longer hours not do not have adequate time to monitor their husband’s health and healthy behavior, to manage their husband’s emotional well-being or buffer his workplace stress.”
Sources: “It’s About Time and Gender: Spousal Employment and Health,” Ross M. Stolzenberg, American Journal of Sociology, July, 2001; “Marriage, Divorce and the Work and Earnings Careers of Spouses,” Lee A. Lillard, Linda J. Waite, University of Michigan, Michigan Retirement Research Center, Working Papers, April, 2000.
Interesting article! I wonder if the next decade will reveal the same?
Hey there. I’m a woman who does not have a career. I’m not married either. I don’t really have a problem with men, and I am not gay. I don’t really see myself ever marrying a man though. Not because I want a career or because I believe all guys are evil. I just really like being single. I’ve tried going out with men and it doesn’t appeal to me that much. I really like a life of meditation and reflection. I like studying human nature and it is fun to read your blog.
I just wanted to say I don’t think men don’t go out with me because I’m a feminist, or I’m really bitch. They don’t go out because I don’t make myself available. Is it weird to hear about a person that doesn’t care about going into a relationship? I wonder if I’m the only one who doesn’t want to get married not because I was burned, but because I choose it?
Anyway I just wanted you to know there was a woman out there who chose to stay single, not because men are bad, men are wonderful and I am grateful they exist. I think life is about finding happiness and you can do that either single or through a relationship, so long as you remember that YOU are responsible for your happiness and no other person.
Also I don’t have sex, because I would only do that in a relationship because of fear of pregnancy or VD, and I’m perfectly happy not having sex. I wonder if that’s another reason for people to go into relationship, just to have sex. I’d rather all my relationships be based on something else. I’d rather that they were all based on true, unconditional love, and if that is not real. I think it is an ideal worth striving for!
Peace,
Sil
Sil,
You are of a different breed. I take it you’re an old soul who was born in the wrong generation. I think some of the nastier comments are geared more toward the latest crop of 14-30 year old sluts who believe that sleeping around makes them “empowered” which couldn’t be farther from the truth.
I don’t advocate Tucker Max too much, but he wrote one hell of an article on the “Duke fuck list” fiasco and I think it’s something all ladies could take note of.
See here: http://www.tuckermax.com/blog/what-i-think-about-karen-owens-and-the-duke-fuck-list/
I used to be the chivalrous type (and yeah, that’ll get a man burned) and got walked on. I also don’t think that I should be a gentleman to people I have little respect for and who’s only value IS sex. I think true “ladies” in the traditional sense of the word had something to offer a relationship and that’s something that has been lost in our material modern world.
Your data are rather selective, and you named YOUR BLOG “Don’t marry career women.” I suspect you are not objective. Maybe a career woman ditched you? Here’s a study indicating the reverse of your POV:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091215102103.htm
I read through that article you linked and I am not impressed with it. It only talks about shared responsibilities at home which is fine and all but it fails to contradict any of the proven statistical data in this Forbes article. It also fails to mention if whether or not the couples that were surveyed both worked 40+ hours a week. And let’s not forget about the variable of throwing kids into the mix. Theoretically, the only way your article could be true is if the woman in the marriage either worked less than 40 hours a week or didn’t work at all as per the data in this article. That way it would leave enough time for her to tend to her husband’s health, and then he could have the energy he needs to share the housework.
I agree with the research. Also, a high number of female counselors and psychologist end in divorce because they are always supposedly correct about all elements of marriage. They can’t be wrong because they studied the material…They will be intimidated and unhappily married to a successful man because they feel they did not live out their dreams due to the down time having children. In my case, she got a doctorate then decided she didn’t want to work then I was to blame for allowing her to not work!!!
No, women are born bossy, u ever seen children play? The girls are usually directing all action, micro managing and all. I’m a young woman who works with children and that I’ve seen it first hand regularly. It’s a little odd. I wonder where all that self confident goes? Probably out with the 1st menses.
Hi,
I agree with the article. Though I am 30 year old, unmarried doing fellowship in surgery. I had an affair with a girl. She is now 29 and doing fellowship in Gynaecology and Obstetrics. I am still of view that working woman is as better for marriage as is a house wife. But it all depends on individuals.
Our affair is at the werdge of breaking and my personal experience fully confirms whatever is said in this article.
Though economic independence is good for women. But I only advice to working women is that the money they bring home should be used to make their home and not to ruin it.
I don’t know I ll marry a working women or a house wife.
But I strongly suggest that its the person that is much more important, and if she is sensible, loyal, loving and caring, it doesn’t matter whether she is a house wife or a working lady.
But yes, generally speaking the working ladies, and especially doctors with high qualifications and high earnings are arrogant, selfish and want a slave instead of a husband who acts to their orders like a dog. And surely I agree that working ladies have a much higher chance of getting to know someone, who they think is better than their spouse.
The question is… are career men good for marriage? Certainly none of the ones that wrote in this blogue…. Very sad to see young men saying stupid things like these….
The only thing women need to be a good wives is to be respected and appreciated by what she is and not what she can do for you. If she is an academic or career women then that should be part of the reason it made you fall in love with her…. Men are talking about getting married the same way one talks about buying a new car… is it going to let me down halfway?… like that no marriage will survive (and to be honest you do not deserve it to last!)
I once was a career women… PhD, plenty of publications, conferences, contacts. Now I am married with two lovely children and a wonderful, loving husband. I would always put my family first, even at a cost of losing my career (that was what eventually happend!). I do not blame anybody for my decision, only myself: I want to be a mother! but it is very frustrating to see men, less inteligent, less productive, less dedicated to their work going forward just because they have the possibility of networking (while their perfect housewives take care of their lifes!). Professional women might be more arrogant, but it is only because they have to work much more in order to achive much less! and if you dont see that is because you are wasting your time looking at catalogues for a perfect housewife (so you can also add that to your CV)! Grow up and, if you want to play mummies and daddies, learn first how to treat a real woman… only then you might be able to get one!
Maria,
You make it sound like women don’t shop for men the way they shop for purses. I’ve never met a doctor or lawyer who was unmarried/not engaged/not dating unless he chose to be. Sports superstar, Hollywood actor, musician,…again they have women knocking on their doors all day long, just ask Kobe.
The problem with marriage today is that women think that there’s always a “bigger better deal” out there and that they can have it without giving anything in return. Women are always after a guy who earns money, and lots of it.
I have a friend who works construction but clears 65K a year, same with a firefighter buddy who makes 55K, but when they tell women their occupations they suddenly think “ut oh, lower class!” and run off. These guys are quarter millionaires (heck I was one at 24!!!) by virtue of being FRUGAL and happy with what they’ve got. We all save, but that’s not to say we don’t spend, we’re just happy with the things they choose to buy. We’re happy with our lives too.
Too bad the ladies don’t stick around, any one of us would make great husbands and fathers. I’m glad I know the deal though and won’t marry. You can have your thugs for pleasure and your lawyers for money…just don’t expect me to come around when you’re old and used up.
I’m not looking for someone perfect just someone who’s good enough with maybe a little bit extra. I just wish you ladies could do the same. (I won’t marry now that I know how bad it is for men, but I’m up for a life-long relationship)
See here:
http://www.mgtow.proboards.com
(P.S) why is is that when men make a conscious decision not to marry they’re told to “grow up”? Like THEY’RE the reason they’re choosing to live a happy, productive single life without the stress and legal/financial worries that come with living in a feminist society.
I am a young wife, sociologist, and feminist and to be frank and honest i am of the belief that marriage is an institution designed to give men a caretaker and support effective raising of children. I personally would not have gtten married if i did not want children. I would like to address all points mentioned from the perspective of a woman since this article is so obviously written by a man.
1. You are less likely to get married to her.
“(1) success in the labor market makes it harder for women to make a marital match,”
Women are no longer beholden to the idea that a man is required in order to provide financial security, she can live the life she wants on her own.
“(2) women with relatively high wages and earnings search less intensively for a match”
She doesn’t have time to
“(3) successful women have higher standards for an acceptable match than women who work less and earn less.” She is still desirous of a provider to allow for the possibility of staying home to care for kids at a standard.”
2. If you do marry, you are more likely to get divorced.
Being aware of options makes you more like to use them.
3. She is more likely to cheat on you.
Being aware of options makes you more like to use them.
4. You are much less likely to have kids.
Who’s got the time or the $?
5. If you do have kids, your wife is more likely to be unhappy.
Having to take care of children is very stressful and given the men are not as likely to pick up the slack in housework and childcare this leaves women feeling underappreciated and resentful of their lives, their husbands and their childrem.
6. Your house will be dirtier.
Who’s got the time?
7. You’ll be unhappy if she makes more than you.
He wants to be the “head of house”/breadwinner but isn’t.
8. She will be unhappy if she makes more than you.
She wants him to be the “head of house”/breadwinner but isn’t to take stress off herself especially if there are children.
9. You are more likely to fall ill.
Who’s got the time to take care of a man when who have to work, try to keep the house clean (with no help), and try to keep the kids clean (again, with no help)?
Modern, egalitarian ideas for households have changed more quickly than our own ideas about what the implications are. Knowing that the grass may in fact be greener on the otherside is a reason to be unhappy and knowing you have the power to do something to change your circumstance is a reason to move on. You can blame a woman’s working hours for that, but what can a man do to ensure his wife that her choices were wise and that she benefits from the husband she has? Relationships are twosided and this article is not, it does not address a man’s role in his wife’s disatisfaction with her life, it only blames her for making hime sick and leaving him.
Ilyssa
“I am a young wife, sociologist, and feminist and to be frank and honest i am of the belief that marriage is an institution designed to give men a caretaker and support effective raising of children.”
If that’s how you think then you have already defeated yourself. Let me break this down for you, marriage has a number of characteristics and I’m going to point out the most important for a marriage to succeed:
1) Self sacrifice – that is putting your wife/husband and children before yourself in all things.
2) Responsibility – that is working hard and not spending your finances foolishly and carelessly.
3) Humility – that is submitting your ego and being able to admit when you are wrong at times as well as dealing with hard times in general.
4) Respect – that is treating your husband/wife with the utmost respect both privately and publicly.
5) Communication – that is be honest, don’t lie, talk to your spouse about everything and listen well.
6) Faithfulness – that is uphold your marital vows, do not commit adultery, not even in your mind.
“I personally would not have gtten married if i did not want children.”
So you married for the sole purpose of having children? You have no real desire to have a husband?
“Women are no longer beholden to the idea that a man is required in order to provide financial security, she can live the life she wants on her own.”
And as a result, divorces sky rocket, marriage rates plummet, birth rates go down, single parents become prominent, etc. etc. etc. Good job feminism, our family structure has been officially destroyed.
“Being aware of options makes you more like to use them.”
That sounds like you are encouraging people to cheat even if they are with someone. Trying to justify yourself after hurting someone is just pathetic. Would you want to be cheated on?
“Having to take care of children is very stressful and given the men are not as likely to pick up the slack in housework and childcare this leaves women feeling underappreciated and resentful of their lives, their husbands and their childrem.”
You assume a lot about men not being willing to help around the house. It’s one thing to feel this resentfulness towards your husband…but to your own children? Are you kidding me?? Has no one ever taught you that in family, the children come first in all things? You should take pride in loving and caring for your family. If not, then something is severely wrong.
“Modern, egalitarian ideas for households have changed more quickly than our own ideas about what the implications are. Knowing that the grass may in fact be greener on the otherside is a reason to be unhappy and knowing you have the power to do something to change your circumstance is a reason to move on. You can blame a woman’s working hours for that, but what can a man do to ensure his wife that her choices were wise and that she benefits from the husband she has? Relationships are twosided and this article is not, it does not address a man’s role in his wife’s disatisfaction with her life, it only blames her for making hime sick and leaving him.”
Modern views of equality in marriage have become distorted because of feminism. Thinking that the grass may be greener is a sign that you have failed in your commitment. If you can’t keep your marital vows, then you are not worthy of marriage. This article simply warns men to stay away from women who value their careers MORE than they value their own families using statistical data. You can’t argue with numbers. As far as a man’s role in the marriage, there are other informational resources across the web that men can refer to.
Thanks, Ninja for breaking all this down me. But these things are really no secret at all. In any relationship be it between spouses, other family members, or between friends and associates, all these characteristics are quite important (substituting fidelity for loyalty).
As far as my motivation for marriage, I got married because I loved the man I was with, and he valued the institution greatly, he felt that if we kept “shacking” we would go to hell, basically. As far as my own feelings about our relationship, I had lived with him for more than a year and saw him as my family, I couldn’t imagine my life without him, but I don’t believe our love is validated by a state issued certificate, bottom line. I never dreamed of weddings and big dresses as a girl, and never really saw myself as seeking a husband
I would never condone much less encourage cheating, what I will say in regards to this topic is that men still have a large lead vs women in the department of extramarital sexual relations. However, I recently read an article that women under 40 are closing the gap.
In regards to the raising of children, we all know that there is nothing we can do that is more valuable than seeing to the effective rearing of your own children. Many parents desire to be present for milestones, achievements, and everyday life. However, this is intense work can be extremely challenging and can often seem daunting. There is also an intense amount of pressure (especially on mother) to be the best mom. Guilt about not being the best mom, if not resolved, will distill into resentment, especially for a woman who may have been more effective in the workplace.
BTW, I do not assume that men do less housework there are numerous studies about it, on in particular found that men’s contribution to housework doubled from the 1960s to the 21st century, increasing from about 15 to more than 30% . If you call 30% a man’s fair share then I apologize.
Now, I want to very briefly discuss the importance of children in the family structure and this is my personal belief I’ve got no evidence to back this up at all and my perspective may be hard to swallow, but here goes, I’m jumping out the window now.
Husbands and wives should be most important to one another. Children should NOT come first in all things and although they should be a priority in the household, spouses make a blood covenant to one another and are bound to one another for life where as we all expect for children to leave one day. By loving and caring for one’s spouse you set a benchmark for children who hopefully will one day exhibit these skills in their own households.
Perhaps this has caused the greatest rifts in households, spouses ditching one another to commit to their children. Not spending time nurturing and supporting their mates. But what do I know, I’m just a twenty-something (Jamie Cullum reference
)
Being black, I know more and have experienced more fallout from the full scale demise of family structure and order than I care to speak to. However, I still do not agree that limiting the options of an individual are an effective means of keeping them committed to their marriage and that is really how the article reads.
The vows are simple and in my state the license is only $30, but life is not that simple. I think that marriage is not successful because it is not held in reverence. People can get into, decide it isn’t for them and slip right out of it. Where marriage was once a binding institution that required an extensive and involved procedure to get out of in both social and legal terms.
What I’d like to hear directly from you is what about feminism specifically tears a marriage apart?
BTW: Rule #1 of Statistics, correlation does NOT equal causation.
Ilyssa – what a wonderful, refreshing, thoughtful and sober reply between all the posturing and bitterness here. Thank you! Jo
Yeah, I don’t get how men so angered and outraged by women are even meeting women or dating them, much less marrying (but one poster futher down exclaims that we should be shipping in more Asian women.). I don’t like angry men, especially men who are angry with women for working and “do[ing] 1.9 hours less housework a week”.
“If you call 30% a man’s fair share then I apologize”
Actually, yes, you should apologize because a fair share is more like 5%. Housework is a woman’s duty. I refuse to marry a woman who does not this so, and the MEN here seem to agree.
The man’s job is to go out and put food on the table, not clean the table.
Ilyssa, why does the statement: “(1) success in the labor market makes it harder for women to make a marital match,” make sense to you?
Is it because women do not want a man who earns less than she does? What ever happened to love rising above and conquering all things?
Women are just not attracted to men who are not wealthy. Men have been the providers since the dawn of our species only instead of spears we have cars, instead of hunting grounds we have offices, instead of meat we bring home cash…
You can substitute any kind of job or method of getting to/doing that job and it would be the same thing. Men are the providers and biologically you’re still attracted to that.
You ladies are also still attracted to thugs and criminals, men who you perceive would satisfy you on a sexual level and who, biologically, you’d like to procreate with. This is why women cheat. They use a stable provider for provisions, they use a thug for sex, they use a listener for an emotional outlet, etc etc. The problem with the modern women is that feminism says that she can have it all…babies, money, sex, from a variety of partners and damn anyone who stands in her way including her “husband”.
I would like to begin by thanking you or leaving the ideas of faith and religion out of this conversation because, for me these are just complicating factors that compound my frustrations with the basic marriage construct.
I will respond to your line of questioning personally and strictly from my point of view, please excuse me if I become long winded, I just enjoy discussing these social issues which reflect my everyday life.
You ask, “[if] women… want a man who earns less than she does?”
Well, simply put, no, I do not. I want to know that if my spouse and I chose to have and raise children that he will be able to effectively provide for us all. Any number of things can occur in the course of bearing and raising children and as the wife and assumed primary child care provider I need to be sure that in the worst case scenarios (difficult pregnancy, child illness, etc.) that our family is secure.
And about “What ever happened to love rising above and conquering all things?” I’ll put it to you like my social systems prof put it to me, “It is hard to make love on an empty stomach.”
To address your comments concerning the attraction to a provider vs a “thug or criminal”; I believe that the biological instinct does not draw women to providers as much as is does to a protector. I think it is our higher level brain functioning that encourages us to seek out a stable environment in which to raise young.
It is interesting that you bring up this idea that women want these loser-/rebel-types over the more stable man. I was just recently looking into the reasons women cheat and came across several peer-reviewed studies that indicate that women are in fact more like to cheat/flirt/fantasize about other men during certain times in their cycle. The work of Dr. Martie Haselton really expounds on these ideas.
Finally, I’d like to address you final point that, “The problem with the modern women is that feminism says that she can have it all…babies, money, sex, from a variety of partners and damn anyone who stands in her way including her “husband”.
I think there was a time in very recent history when women believed this lie; my mother is of that age. Becoming a woman in the late 80’s and raising her family through the 90’s, my mom is just now rebounding from the errors in her thought processes. But young women (of my age 18-30) suffered having mothers who tried to have it all and do it all and who never really succeeded at any of it.
I was not looking for a husband or to become a wife, I wanted to find a partner, not a feminized version of a man, but a real man who recognized me as strong and valuable to society and not just to our home. A man who will allow me to let dishes pile up after a long days work or who may even think to clean them himself. Who picks up my slack and who will allow me to pick up his without resenting me. And, a man who knows what he offers me is greater than the size of his bank account or paycheck.
Rick I’m not sure how old you are or how you found yourself at this blog, but I hope my perspective offers insight into the mind of a young married woman.
“Well, simply put, no, I do not. I want to know that if my spouse and I chose to have and raise children that he will be able to effectively provide for us all. Any number of things can occur in the course of bearing and raising children and as the wife and assumed primary child care provider I need to be sure that in the worst case scenarios (difficult pregnancy, child illness, etc.) that our family is secure.”
Interesting…so here is a scenario. Let’s say you are making like 60k a year and you meet a man with the same level education, but he is making around 40k a year. Both are good salaries and you could easily live off of 40k if you decided to have children and be a stay at home mom. Are you saying that you would not marry him simply because he makes less? There are families with many children that have to live off of less.
“To address your comments concerning the attraction to a provider vs a “thug or criminal”; I believe that the biological instinct does not draw women to providers as much as is does to a protector. I think it is our higher level brain functioning that encourages us to seek out a stable environment in which to raise young.”
Uh, since when does a thug or criminal become a protector? Last I checked, they hurt women by lying, cheating and stealing. This biological instinct that you are talking about is the sinful desire to lust after something which will inevitably end in pain and suffering. As far as higher brain functioning, there’s a lot more to it than that but I won’t go into it because you don’t seem like the type that believes in God to begin with.
“It is interesting that you bring up this idea that women want these loser-/rebel-types over the more stable man. I was just recently looking into the reasons women cheat and came across several peer-reviewed studies that indicate that women are in fact more like to cheat/flirt/fantasize about other men during certain times in their cycle. The work of Dr. Martie Haselton really expounds on these ideas.”
It’s not just interesting, it’s a nationwide fact. Does this Dr. Martie Haselton provide any solutions to this plague of cheating/flirting/fantasizing?
“I think there was a time in very recent history when women believed this lie; my mother is of that age. Becoming a woman in the late 80’s and raising her family through the 90’s, my mom is just now rebounding from the errors in her thought processes. But young women (of my age 18-30) suffered having mothers who tried to have it all and do it all and who never really succeeded at any of it.”
Was a time? It’s still happening and families are suffering because of it. Since you were raised by your mother in this way, what makes you think you won’t fall in the same trap that she got herself into? It’s not just the young women that have been indoctrinated with this flawed idealism but the men as well. I fall into the same age group as you do so I can relate.
“I was not looking for a husband or to become a wife, I wanted to find a partner, not a feminized version of a man, but a real man who recognized me as strong and valuable to society and not just to our home. A man who will allow me to let dishes pile up after a long days work or who may even think to clean them himself. Who picks up my slack and who will allow me to pick up his without resenting me. And, a man who knows what he offers me is greater than the size of his bank account or paycheck.”
You sound like you are lacking in family values and only look at marriage as a business deal rather than a joyed union between a man and a woman. What is it that you think he knows he offers you that is greater than his bank account?
I began replying to this post before I saw the second one, so I apologize if I seem redundant. I really enjoy this exchange. I am gaining insight into different perspectives on these issues. I wanted to continue this I was not sure if we were keeping the conversation secular but after reading the most recent post I see that you are open to discussing things in religious/spiritual terms. Many of these ideas are ones that I am personally seeking to clarify through my faith and personal beliefs.
…So,…..
Great scenario, but not particularly realistic for me; 40k would be a stress given that I want more than 1 child. Federal guidelines to qualify for WIC/food stamps are that a household of 4 earning less than $40793 qualifies for assistance, unless you’re suggesting going that route in order for me to stay at home.
About the “thug/criminal” he represents the better sexual mate who will more likely provide risk taking offspring which is a desirable trait in our species. And who is more likely himself to produce offspring even in risky situations, thus promoting the species. Where as a spouse can provide a secure and stable home life for those children (the biology speaking). Now I am still of the belief that men and women cheat for very different reasons and usually a woman initial motivation is not a lustful pursuit but comes from a misguided desire to resolve the dysfunction in her own relationship. As far as this being a nationwide fact, I think the biological implications mean that the desire, whether or not pursued, would span the species.
What makes me think I won’t fall in the same trap that my mom got herself into?
Because there were many ways that my mothers experience of her parents relationship effected her own marriage and I feel the same will be true for me. Every generation offers a chance to revise the choices of generations before.
I don’t know what your faith is, but I am a practicing Christian, and I see the mandates on men and women as having been clearly expressed in the Text. The bottom line for me is that as a newly wed I am just working on the one commandment the bible makes for good wifedom (I made that word up), to respect you husbands, I don’t even have to love him (the husband is commanded to love his wife.) But please don’t get it twisted (uh- oh, I’m getting ghetto), my husband is my very best friend and was so first, before we dated, met families, or got married.
What is it that I know he knows he offers me that is greater than his bank account?
His respect, time, generosity, affection, conversation, etc. However, I am aware that these things aren’t as concrete as being financially dependent on him and so you may feel these are less reliable ties that bind us together.
Ilyssa, I can tell that you are a very intelligent person and I have a lot of respect for that and women in general. I am glad to know that you are a Christian because I am of the same faith. At this point, I’m not even talking about this article anymore because over the past couple of years I have been reading 100′s of articles on different topics including things like reasons for divorce, marriage, infidelity, etc.
As for the scenario I proposed, those were just arbitrary numbers I was picking from the air. I was simply asking you if you would refuse to marry a man simply because he makes less than you no matter the number. That’s just the impression I was getting from you.
Concerning the thug and criminal type, they do indeed represent the better sexual partner but with a heavy cost. The reason they have this representation is because they are much more likely to express confidence in what they do. There’s a number of flaws with this. The problem is these criminal types become overly confident to the point they become arrogant with their behavior. That arrogance either lands them in jail or in a grave. The price women have to pay for being foolish enough to hook up with one of these guys is becoming a single mother or emotionally torn apart. The thug type does not possess the constitution, family values, and respect for women to actually stick with her to help parent the child. Can the stable man possess a level of confidence in his actions? Yes, but it takes us longer to achieve them.
To address your question from above about feminism, there are many extraneous variables concerning the destruction of our families and way of life. I believe that feminism has a direct hand in this, not just in our country, but more prominently in places like the U.K., Canada and Australia. Things like divorce and remarriages went up in huge numbers during the 1960′s and 70′s. Here are some charts to show you what I’m talking about:
http://www.biblenews1.com/marriage/marriags.htm
After doing much reading and learning about the history of feminism, I learned that around the same time those divorces and remarriages took place, second-wave feminism also took place otherwise known as “women’s liberation.” This wave mainly consisted of radical feminists that went on all their protests and what not. It pretty much ended around 1980. The results are things like ‘sex and the city’, magazines and other types of media that teach people flawed relationship dynamics. The biggest problem I have with feminism is when the feminists corrupted the legal system into being one-sided in favor of women in the family and divorce courts. As a result, men no longer want to marry not because we fear commitment. It’s the fear of unfair legislation in the legal system is what gets us. The reason why I believe the divorce industry supports the feminists in this is that they make more money from it by extorting as much money as possible from a husband/father through things like alimony and excessive child support. Ilyssa, you need to understand that as long as you call yourself a feminist then you are basically asking for trouble from men who’ve become aware of it or burned by it. To me, there are 2 types of strength in a woman, masculine strength and feminine strength. Since the radical feminists showed a lot of masculinity in their personalities, I think much of that carried over to our generation of women, that is women who behave more like men. I’m sure you know exactly what I’m talking about here. So when one of these masculine women gets married, chaos ensues in the marriage as she is constantly trying to compete with her man. Men hate this when they are not trying to be competitive to begin with. It pretty much goes against what is talked about in the book of Ephesians. Here is an article concerning marriage that ties in a lot of Scriptures together that I think you will enjoy.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/bakers-evangelical-dictionary/marriage.html
Matthew Henry wrote: “The woman was made out of Adam’s side. She was not made out of his head to rule over him, nor out of his feet to be trampled upon by him, but out of his side to be equal with him, under his arm to be protected, and near his heart to be loved.” I really like this quote and it pretty much sums up what I believe
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Ilyssa sounds like the typical feminist to me.
She doesn’t need a “man” to provide for her, yet she will ultimately wind-up with a man who earns more than her and has an equal or advanced education. That is a promise.
Poverty is relative, Ilyssa. 40k is enough to successfully raise children in the US. That is unless you desire the doctors wife lifestyle that so many women are yearning for.
Mark, do you have children? Please describe to me the lifestyle of a doctor’s wife? And what is wrong with anyone wanting a comfortable life? One where you can take your children on a modest vacation in the summer and can afford to provide for your own children’s healthcare without being reliant on the government to provide that for you? I only site the national guidelines for poverty here and they state that a family of 4 earning less than $40793 qualifies for food assistance. That’s nationally. I happen to live in an area where it costs a little more to live.
BTW, my husband is a tradesman and is more than capable of providing for myself and his 2 children on a modest salary, what does a person’s level of education matter, I only argue that a single earner family of 40k is not enough to raise a family of 4 or more and I strongly desire to have many (5+) children.
She’s looking for “Mr. Big” just like Sarah Jessica Parker was looking for in “Sluts-In-The-City”.
Sorry, but an all in one package of Tall, dark, handsome, muscular and RICH is pretty hard to come by and every penis that passes through a woman’s vag along the way makes her less and less valuable as a human being.
Better to take a kind loving relationship and just be genuinely happy with it, only that’s impossible for women as long as some other girl has a richer husband, or a more muscular husband, or a taller husband, etc. It’s all about bragging rights and their pecking order among the herd you see.
“every penis that passes through a woman’s vag along the way makes her less and less valuable as a human being.”
I’m sorry, I wasn’t going to comment on anything but this one really bothered me.
Have you ever considered that it was this mentality which treats women as objects that caused feminism in the first place?
Is it fair that men can fly through relationships and be considered “manlier” or “cooler” for it while women who have multiple relationships are considered “tarnished”?
If it is OK for men to choose who ever they want while women have to settle for “what they get” then that is not a society i want to live in.
It is not OK for men to fly through relationships at all. Bot sexes need to understand and keep their commitments.
But the facts remain: the more sexual partners a woman has had, the less valuable she is considered to be by men. Women know this, and that is why they don’t usually like to reveal the number of their sexual partners, or they lie about it by quoting lower figures.
I guess we can’t reply to you Phanes, so I’ll reply to myself.
You say that women “have to settle for ‘what they get’” yet in this society it is women who have all the choice in the world.
If that is true, and I think most on here would say that it is, then why choose to sleep around with scumbags while you’re young and then only start looking for responsible father types/providers when you’re looking for a house and money.
I guess the perpetual scumbags can’t provide that to you now that you’re old (30) and used up and they’ve moved on to 18 year olds who still have tight vaginal walls and are eager to give blowjobs.
Sorry, but I’m good looking, responsible, frugal and have a job. I’ve had a house since 24 (saved more than half the money I made from the Army) and I’m not about to share it with someone who only has to pretend to be nice for 2 years of marriage and then could potentially (indeed likely) file for divorce.
I refuse to be a walking ATM machine for someone who wasted the better part of her youth humping guys she KNEW to be abusive, stupid, immature dirtbags. Have fun drinking at the bar and playing with your cats.
I often time wonder what type of effect mind altering medication has on people be they men or women. We are seeing a virtual pandemic of failed marriages and everyone seems to be blaming feminism, now don’t get me wrong I’m not a fan of feminism but feminism has been around for almost a 100 years. It helped women achieve the right to own property, vote and get an education.
Mind altering medication such as Prozac and Ritalin have been on the market roughly at par with the high level of failed marriages, high rates of domestic violence and high rates of lacking in accountability thus acting out fantasies involving adultery.
Addressing a few point made:
“the “thug/criminal” he represents the better sexual mate who will more likely provide risk taking offspring which is a desirable trait in our species.”
Thugs and Criminals do not have a more desireable trait, if they did then we would imprison Doctors, Engineers and highly intelligent persons, such as myself.
A thug or criminal’s primary consideration is him/herself. Spend sometime in prison and you will quickly learn first hand how quickly a thug or criminal will stick a shank in you over a pack of cigarettes.
Thugs and criminals are sexually attractive for affairs because they are disposable, similiar to a prostitute, use them then discard them.
“Now I am still of the belief that men and women cheat for very different reasons and usually a woman initial motivation is not a lustful pursuit but comes from a misguided desire to resolve the dysfunction in her own relationship.”
Nonesense, men and women cheat for the exact same reason, lust. Women cover up their infidelity by passing the blame on to their husbands for their own lack of accountability by claiming there was a dysfunction in the relationship. A woman who gets caught cheating asks for financial stability just as if she was still living in that financially secure marriage, women do not ask for State Sponsored Mental Health Advice to understand what went wrong in the relationship. They want compensation to keep the exact same lifestyle.
And all this lack of accountability is akin to mental illness, such as running over a kid on a sidewalk with ones vehicle then claiming no fault because the kid should of been in school at the time. Its lower level of intelligence that could only of been enhanced by mind numbing pharmaceuticals.
“Thugs and Criminals do not have a more desirable trait, if they did then we would imprison Doctors, Engineers and highly intelligent persons, such as myself.”
If there were no thugs and criminals on the street Lawyers would not have anybody to defend or represent and doctors would have no one to treat for injuries.
Don’t you get it? Everybody plays a role in this society.
What about single moms who don’t produce anything, but manage to be a drain on society and who are more likely to produce thugs and criminals?
I’ve read that upwards of 80% of criminals in prison come from broken homes. Something tells me that not all of those fathers just up and walked, there has to be some other reason.
Could it be economic incentives for women to 1. delay family formation and sleeping around in the meantime, 2. not need a husband PRESENT as a provider (forced alimony, child support) or 3. Government safety nets (WIC, TANF, Section 8)?
With all that in place, it’s no wonder that men “aren’t needed”.
I am a carrer woman and I agree with the title, although not with the reasons given not to marry someone “like me”.
I work hard, take care of my home (not dirty at all), never cheated (not even on my former boyfriends – dated one at a time) – i do not cheat out of respect and I would never date or enter a relationship with anyone I did not respect. Also, I do not want children and nver lied about it. I certainly would never use a child to get money out of anyone, that would be tottaly immoral. I do not care if I make more that my life-partner or if the reverse is the case. I see relationahips as time to be spent together as two whole individuals, not as a way to “complete” one or the other. Having said that, I tottaly agree that men shoud not marry carrer women. Men who want to enter marriage are certain to have an old-fashioned view of life, in which the wife is supposed to be an inferior being, destined to clean up after them, breed children and be devoid of a life of their own. Man who feel the need to marry want a whore and a maid, always on their beck and call. They are not fit to have a grown-up relationship with a complete human being.
Why would a sane human being need to tie another person up in a social contract that ruins 2 lives at once? Much better to live life free and value the time you spend together with another human being who freely wants to be with you.
Wow, women can’t decide if men are immature adolescents for not wanting to get married, or if men are abusive thugs for wanting to get married. The counter arguments posed by women tend to illustrate the author’s primary point: This will be an unsatisfying relationship, and will go from bad to worse when she decides to boot your ass to the curb for an upgrade.
I wanted a partner, with the nature of our relationship to be whatever worked out best for the both of us and our family. My ex had the option, and the luxury, do stay at home, go to school, pursue any option she wanted. I ended up living with a tyrant, and her abusive nature is endorsed by the court system.
Granted, my ex is not a ‘career oriented’ professional. however, I can see why there would be even fewer incentives for a productive relationship, and a considerable moral hazard that destroys the relationship.
Google a story called “alpha women, beta men”. This relationship causes problems. http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/features/n_9495/
Come to think of it, gay marriage is likely to be the only thing where two people can have a relationship of equals. Certainly, dispite all the complaints about “teh patriarchy”, women enjoy a considerable advantage over men, and professional white women are at the top of that heap.
No, not every woman who has a degree is so mercenary about their relationship. But, when you look at how our culture has portrayed men for the last 3 decades, and how our legal system is so blatantly biased against men, you have to conclude that marriage, especially to a career woman, is not a good option. If feminists claim that popular culture pollutes male attitudes towards women, then the same is true for the attitudes of women towards men.
Women complain about being “disposable” – re “The starter wife”, “the ex-wives club”, etc., but the reality is that there is nothing more disposable than an American husband. There is plenty of disincentive for a man to have a callous, dismissive attitude to a relationship he swore an oath to honor and protect, but in our zeal “to protect women”, there are no reciprocal disincentives. Women “need”, aparently, the ability to flush inconvienient relationships down the toilet whenever it suits them, and damn any oath they made.
I suppose that, given women’s attitudes about abortion, it’s no suprise they’re willing to flush other relationships as quickly, and at the same time, maintain a double standard when it comes to “male responsibility” when it’s convienient to them. “My body, my choice, someone else’s responsibility”.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think that women should be subservient baby factories, or the oft demonized stereotype from the 50′s. I do think they should take responsibility for their decisions, and by that, I mean that they should be held to the same standard that men are.
Excellent post Wayne. I think much the same way you do and I have the experience to back it up as well.
American men are disposable. We are treated as beasts of burden and we are expected to work and provide for our tyrant. Even when a relationship is over and you get nothing in return you’re expceted to fork over your hard earned cash while your ex is living in the house you earned while fucking another man. In…Your….House.
Most men wouldn’t be bothered by their ex having relations with others. It’s ended and of no concern….unless they’re subsidizing it.
This is the reality of the society we live in. Don’t get married boys. You have NOTHING to gain and EVERYTHING to lose including your money and assets, your future labor, and your freedom.
White American Woman suck all together – They desire contol to the Nth degree and must have it at all cost. Well guess what? It has just cost your dignity and any respect you could have had coming! You are some of the most vile females to walk the planet and have sought to poison the minds of every other culture’s women who except more traditional roles. This is disgusting. One can not even express thoughts of contempt about you without you rushing to protect your fragile little egos.
I say Ditch The AmeriHag For Ever!
I’ve never dated a black women but it’s them too. It’s the same story the guys tell at work, how they all have baggage, and like Scott below said how they hate all men.
No wonder men are dropping out of the marriage pool at unbelievable rates. The black guys seem to have figured out that their female counterparts are money-grubbing, controlling byatches and it’s about time white men started figuring it out too.
Besides, you’ll be a lot richer not having to spend a ton of YOUR money on a grown-child-woman.
I always tell all my friends, NEVER marry an American woman. I married an Asian woman and never been happier. Asian women are thin, classy, highly educated, pretty, loyal and NEVER cheat. It’s come to the point where the only nice American women are either FAT or really OLD. I am so happy with my choice. There are other options men and you will do best in life to avoid relationships with American women. The US is now getting a lot of hot Asian women immigrants.
Your comments are offensive & verge on being racist. I wonder if an American born Asian is better than an American too? And are u in stellar physical condition? I’m sure u are, I’m just wondering. Finally, it is very difficult to prove fedelity, but I’m not telling u anything u don’t know. I”m quite sure your wife appreciates, honors, and respects u too much to do anything against u.
I’m a widower and just recently re-entered the dating scene. The first woman I “met” was a wonderful, wonderful woman from England — that’s right, a (by her own admission) “reserved Brit.” Things didn’t start off as a romance between us, but quickly headed in that direction as we got to know one another. Meanwhile, she also asked that I continue meeting/dating American women, as it was uncertain if we’d ever be able to meet.
As I did so, it didn’t take me long to notice some differences; differences that proved out once we decided to meet several months later with my English friend, and which, from what I’ve gathered in research online and reading numerous articles, seem typical in general of differences between British women and American women. The differences are subtle, but noticeable, and mostly deal with what a woman in the two cultures is seeking in a man. UK women, as a whole — and this is noticeable in their profiles on dating sites — seem to be more interested in finding a man who will truly be a partner for them and someone with whom they can communicate openly and freely about anything, and know that he will listen and consider their opinions. While I’ve often heard American women say they want this, their actions often say something quite contrary to this. I spent 17 years working at a public university, and during that time I frequently heard married women talk at coffee and lunch breaks about how great their husband was but how they hated all other men. Married women also would talk about going on a vacation by themselves without even consulting or telling their husband they were going; some actually did — not a good way to keep a marriage, or any relationship, in tact. Single American women would openly talk, on the job, about how awful all American men are and yet simultaneously brag about how great a date was and how “in love” with the man they were, even if they had just met him and dated only once or twice — hardly long enough, in most cases, to know whether you love someone. These same women, married or single, would also openly talk about their sexual hangups, and it was very clear that even though they claimed to be liberated, sexually and otherwise, that they’re still clinging to a lot of beliefs that stem from Puritan myths that have been so woven into the fabric of our culture for the last 400+ years.
I’m sure there are exceptions, but for the most part these things aren’t issues with the British women I’ve known. They may share things with a date/lover about an ex when they feel it’s important but they don’t feel the need to compare a current lover to an ex or to tell a current lover all of the details that resulted in the breakup, but instead share it on a “need to know” basis if they feel it will help keep things moving well in a current relationship. They talk openly with their lover about sex and their sexual needs and desires and, for the most part, seem to have far, far fewer sexual hangups than American women; they value the relationship they have with their man, and respect men in general — they may not get along with every man, but we all have some people we don’t get along with — but they don’t hate all men except their lover/husband/current date. And, of course, the Brits don’t have any Puritan myths to cling to, and their culture goes back many, many centuries more than the American culture. Brit women also seem less hung up on competing with men and showing that a woman “can do anything a man can do.” There seems to be a more general acceptance among Brits in general that women and men can do the same work and that there should be equal pay for equal work. And British women seem to be more “liberated” and more forward thinking than American women yet also value family equally right along with work. Unfortunately, too many American women any more put work and career ahead of anything else, and family often suffers because of that. British women also seem, overall, to be more laid back and easygoing than American women, and more likely to want to talk things through than to fight.
If other American men wish to continue dating, and marrying, American women who are hellbent on career over anything else, that’s fine. As for me, if I have a choice, I’ll choose an easygoing Brit who’s seeking a more balanced approach to relationships, career, and family.
I am a south african woman, aged 41, never been married (engaged a couple of times), no kids (they just polute the planet) and I got over myself as being the A-type feminist achiever looooooong ago. I was an editor for a financial and business magazine and now I am a travel writer and editor. I make a lot less but I am happy. I DO believe the majority of the practical burden of a household with husband and children falls on the woman. I made a practical desicion never to get married or have children and dont believe I will regret it for a second – I havent so far, my life is too full and eventful. A husband and kids make you old, bitter and resentful before your time and I think many women should never have gotten married – especially not at a young age! marrying for “love” is the stupedist idea ever. Ask any succesful society OUTSIDE the United States…
I’m glad you’re happy, fortunately, the future doesn’t belong to childless spinsters.
Career woman are disgusting.You dont hear men running around yelling,I am independant and strong,you know why,because we are,we are born this way and its nothing in our lives we have had to achieve.
If your a woman and want to be a career woman,”a professional”which most of the time for woman,especially when they look for mates is code for goldigger.If they are professional themselves like even most men,they are just greedy useless consumers.
Kids to woman are like trinkets,toys.No one wants them so they literally have children to have friends that wont run away from them.There is nothing worst than a woman who has children,who is single,with no reliable man around or way to provide for the child who was just looking for a sperm donor because disney taught them they were princesses from day one,and feminism taught them they were better than men and sexual gods,and didnt need a father around.
Fast forward to today.Woman are single,unwanted,with children from different babies daddies,going to school,working full time and raising the children all by themselves which guarantees most men will run from them.
Basically woman are born with a lawyer and a pair of boxing gloves.Yippy hooray for the alpha female whos womans rights movement was coopted by the socialists to destroy america by putting two alphas in a home.Men are born alpha,woman have to be made that way which in my opinion shows “tinkering”by elements in the Usa that want to destroy it.Its straight up gender war fare,our woman have stopped being woman and act like men which is truly disgusting.Why am I going to treat a woman like a queen just because she has a warm body,is 98.6 degrees and brings nothing to the table but drama,a crew cut and a business suit?????
Not really sure how a woman is made alpha, but…I won’t linger there. I know women on either side. Women who work, stay @ home, do both, or neither. I definitely understand that men don’t walk around shouting “I am independant and strong” but that’s because that’s how men are raised from quite early (got a son? ever heard him tell u or anyone else that he was “big and strong”, those are even that terms we use when speaking with male babies) by the time they’re adults they are so diluted as to think of them selves as superior.
It sometimes seems like men really only have to do the bare minimum in order to be honored and exhalted. When a man is not showered with accolades for washing dishes, or putting the kids down @ night then he can’t muster the motivation to do so.
I would like to point out really insecure women get off on putting other women down, whether it’s an arogant career woman who thinks home making is beneath them or a stay@home mom who seems to be trying to convince u of how rewarding motherhood is or how u’re just too weak/selfish/materialistic to put your children first. It’s all pretty disgusting.
I personally would love to be able to find a balance that allows me to care & provide for my family and spouse adequately, while being honest with myself and meeting my needs as well. I’m a young wife (no children yet) and to be honest it is quite difficult to just meet the needs of my husband and work (but my husband is a manchild and very needy, not like most men at all). Not sure what the future holds for me, but I intend to make sure to take care of myself first, cause as a wife/mother/partner, there is no way I’ll be any good to anyone else otherwise.
You might try a better class of woman.You clearly have issues with women in general. I have a career and my hair is down past my shoulders, lol. I don’t really want kids but if they come along I’ll have them and love them. And I’ll work, like millions of women throughout history have done. And a PRINCESS by the way, can be a woman who thinks that because she got pregnant that the whole world has to take care of her. The kind of women who use men as sperm donors and financial support aren’t likely to be working women. We can support ourselves without trapping some guy into a loveless marriage. Get some help before you meet a good woman and destroy her.
Plain and simple. Homemakers are less likely to get divorced because they fewer marketable skills. A woman with a career may look around if she’s unhappy because if she loses her man she still has a good quality of life. Not so some stay at home breeding consumer. So yes, if you want to keep your wife without putting any effort in to the relationship, by all means, find some woman who just wants to drive the kids to activities and talk about how important her life is. I’ll take a man who can earn my love as well as a paycheck.
And then you’ll divorce him and take the kids and house.
Yep. That’s MY plan anyway! To work hard on a relationship, have a good career, hopefully get married to a kind and loving man one day, just so I can claim our mutual assets as our own.
WOW you’ve really got all us awful women figured out, it’s a wonder you’re not happily married yourself!
Great job! This is one of the best articles I have read.
Why would a capable man in his right mind marry a career woman?
I am not against the wife stepping up to work and helping in some situations, only temporarily and only if the husband needs it (unemployed, disabled, etc.).
However, if a man is able to singly support a house and a family (and i mean support the basic needs, not a 4000 sq. ft. house, every TV channel in every network, etc.), would a career woman really deserve to be in that family? I mean think about it. In a situation like this, marriage becomes more like a business partnership. The woman is just a business partner that is adding to the financial wealth of the family, but in the mean time, subtracting a lot from -I would say even destroying- its fundamental value. Having children. Raising them well. Taking care of the house. Cooking nice meals. Taking care of the husband. Doing household work.
By marrying a career woman, you will end up with a dirty home, fast food for dinner, unbehaved children (if any), no time for each other. Why would you even marry? And with the majority of women having that career-oriented mind, it’s no wonder that many men refuse to marry – and they are right, those women do not deserve to be wives.
On the other hand, when you do find that great woman who is willing to stay at home and be a housewife for you and a mother for your children, go right for it. You have found a rare treasure in today’s world full of fake glitter.
That is great, if you are a man who is driven to be the breadwinner in your home. But for many career women, their husbands have stopped trying to advance themselves, because they have a gravy train in their wives.
For many women, not only do you work 50 to 60 hours a week to bring the bacon home FOR THE BENEFIT OF YOUR FAMILY, but then you are met at the door with dirty dishes, dirty clothes, etc. I often say I have four jobs, home-keeper, homework (with my children whom I love intensely), my income earning position, and in-home bed-mate for my husband who never expects me to say no.
I do earn more than 66% of our homes income, and it does make me feel resentful when I don’t see much drive in my man to change that dynamic. I have few choices, because letting up on my career means reducing my family’s standard of living. Right at this minute I would like to take a 10month break and continue in Grad school without stress and without taking more time from my children. BUT I DON’T HAVE THAT OPTION, because I don’t have a partner that can support me and the family.
In addition to my lack of flexibility, my partner is not as willing to pick up the slack – beyond a certain comfort level. “If he don’t want to do it, it ain’t going to get done’. Well somethings just have to get done, so that leaves me – - – as usual.
In addition to the hints of infidelity I’ve experienced (from him, not me), that is why I’m contemplating divorce.
Have you ever thought about or discussed with your husband giving up your career and becoming a real wife and a real mother and just living off of the remaining 34% of your household income? If he’s not willing to let you do that, then I agree, he’s a loser. But if you’re the one who’s not willing to do that, well then you really should not be complaining because all of those things you’ve mentioned are your responsibility and you should not expect your husband to do any of it. It’s not his job. And are you surprised by his infidelity? Let’s see. From the schedule you’ve described it sounds like he’s last on your list so you’ve left him with no choice but to find another woman. Even the time off you would take is for graduate school. One question comes to mind. If your career is so important to you then why the heck did you ever get married?!
TRULY horrifying.
“giving up your career and becoming a real wife and a real mother”
Having a career doesn’t mean you are not a REAL wife and mother any more than having a career means you are not a REAL husband and father.
“And are you surprised by his infidelity? Let’s see. From the schedule you’ve described it sounds like he’s last on your list so you’ve left him with no choice but to find another woman.”
By your standards, men are entitled to sex, and if their wife doesn’t give it to them they need to find it elsewhere. Do you think rape is ok then? Because if a man can’t get what he wants from a woman willingly he must take it. Because men NEED sex by your logic. How revolting. What about when a man’s wife becomes ill, God forbid must go to hospital – she can’t have sex with him then, so he is FORCED to cheat on her? You have a sick and twisted idea of sexual intimacy and entitlement.
“If your career is so important to you then why the heck did you ever get married?”
People get married because they are in love and want to spend the rest of their lives together. Not to become a SLAVE to another human being.
So unbelievably stupid and sexist, I actually feel physically ill.
“any more than having a career means you are not a REAL husband and father.”
In fact it’s quite the opposite. A woman with a career is not suitable for being a wife or a mother because she cannot have a career without subtracting from the other. Whereas a real husband and a real father should have a career because he is the provider of the family.
“and if their wife doesn’t give it to them they need to find it elsewhere”
Yes. Why would a man get married then? And I am not saying cheating is correct. But perhaps when the situation becomes this bad then it’s time to get rid of this woman and go find a new wife. I do not call this cheating because it’s the wife’s fault for being too busy with other things.
“What about when a man’s wife becomes ill”
That’s a different situation. A woman does not CHOOSE to become ill, but when it comes to a career it’s her choice to take a way from her marital duties.
“People get married because they are in love”
haha
“Not to become a SLAVE to another human being”
If a woman fulfills her duties of home making, having children and raising them, she does not become a slave. Just like it does not make a man a slave to go work like a horse to provide for his family because it’s his duty. In fact, a woman becomes a slave when she dumps her family to go serve the corporations. That’s real slavery.
“So unbelievably stupid and sexist”
This whole idea of “feminism” and equality among genders is the stupidest invention that is the work of the devil whose only purpose is to destroy families and societies. Take a look around you if you’re blind to that.
Actually women cheat because of lustful pursuits and the next thing you know, they get killed for it by their men. I mean women who hurt men by lying and cheating with other men get killed. But it’s a woman’s role to hurt a man.
This thought process of women staying home & raising children isn’t practical unless you have a wealthy husband. I married @ 38 & had my first child @ 39. I’ve worked as an RN my whole marriage. My husband has always helped with our son, housework, laundry, even cooking. We always felt we were a team. I was raised in a christain home & never thought cheating was an option, neither does my husband. It’s sad to see a break down in the american family & moral decline. We need to get back to biblical basics & honor our husbands, wives & family
For someone who preaches about the dangers of confusing correlation with causation, you seem to be doing an awful lot of it yourself.
For example: a career woman is more likely to cheat on you.
Correction: a housewife who has less access to other men and children to look after, is less likely to be able to cheat on you than a woman who is away from home and in contact with other men on a reguar basis.
I won’t continue by applying this kind of sense and reason to the rest of your points, I have to get back to work. Suffice to say, you argument is the logical equivalent of a chocolate teapot.
I disagree. I have a J.D., whereas my husband has a high school diploma, yet we are absolutely happy together. We have been together for more than 5 years, and now we are expecting a new baby. My salary is probably 3 times of my husband, but it made no difference to us or to our relationship.
i love this cause i already had an idea of it,my girl thinks she can cope with living a cele lifestyle as a carreer woman and not be carried away.well i never agreed but she confessed she wount forgive me for not letting her act movies.do u think she loves me.or shes just there?
Well ladies. I work 6 days on and days off. And I mean 6 days in the fields. I then come home for 3 days after those 6 days of work are over. And that is a good nice schedule in the oil industry. If I am ever going to get married it can’t be to a career woman. I know I may never get married in this new woman liberation era because of that. The only woman I could have would be one who wants to stay home and take care of the kids and house while I work my ass off to provide a nice home. Should women be allowed to pursue careers? Hell yes. But there are limitations and tradeoffs. Would I like to marry a woman who has a successful career? Yes. But it would not work with my job being what it is.
Whelp, if the general population of men on this planet is made up of sexist scumbags like you lot, I’ll just stay single. I have a great life, I take care of myself, have wonderful and loving friends and family, and overall I’m really happy! Sure, it’d be nice to get married one day, but if it means being treated like a piece of subhuman shit I’d rather just forget about it.
Thanks for making my decision easier! Buh-bye assholes! xoxo
Scary how a woman that wants to be a stay at home, be a mother of lots of kids, and take care of a home while her husband works 90 hours a week is a subhuman slave and a man who works his ass off providing for them is an asshole.
Please! That’s not what anyone is saying. Quit being so paranoid. This article is a sexist diatribe so men can point to “scientific” evidence on why they can marry a non-threatening woman who’s only life is catering to them. I don’t approve of women being stay at home consumers; millions of women have raised kids and worked outside the home. It’s only recently that there’s been this push to keep us tied to the stove. I appreciate a hardworking man but if he can’t handle me being a financial support to our family then he isn’t man enough for me. Go find your stay at home woman, who thinks driving to soccer games and spending your money is work. You deserve what you get.
I would have no problem marrying a career woman and having children with her. I have more than 8 years post secondary education, no kids, and is ready to to have a family…if I need to stay home and take care of the kids so that an good income can be earned so that the kids can be raised properly so be it. Changing roles does not bother me. I am pretty sure that my spouse to be would agree. The problem i fining one.
American femi hags deserve to be alone- what real men want is a feminine woman who is gentle and looks to him for leadership and protection not a bullying domineering bitch. Feminists can count their shekels and admire their clipped hair in their beemer mirrors, as for me not in a million years would I marry one of these -as my buddy coined- “power cunts”.
Good thing I’m not American, then. GOD BLESS GREAT BRITAIN! And any woman in her right mind would rather be alone than with a bullying, domineering man like you. You think women should adhere to a list of criteria, which funnily enough, YOU get to set for them! How nice of you to decide on behalf of all men and women, what men want and how women ought to be! Are you God? Did you create men and women? Do you know the intricacies of their being? Their aspirations, dreams and desires? NO. You can’t see past your own power and selfish desires. Relationships are about sharing your lives together because you love one another. This means finding out what both parties want to do, and finding a happy medium. That is what my parents did, and after 26 years they are still happily married and in love. My father is the one who taught me the meaning of feminism, and to stand against inequality WHEREVER I see it. Racism, sexism, bigotry of any kind – men like you are happy to enforce these because they BENEFIT YOU. Thank God for men like my dad, who make up their own mind about what they want, and respect women as equals. They are happier for it, they have better lives for it, and their marriages are deeper and more fulfilling than these bullshit, infantile power games that lead to abuse, divorce, and misery.
“Good thing I’m not American”
Actually, the comment above describes a view that is quite universal among men. I can assure you, MEN all over the world including British men are sick and tired of this “feminism” load of crap whose only purpose is to destroy families and societies.
In fact, these rules that we “are happy to enforce” benefit YOU, women, the most. If it wasn’t for those rules women would be equal or ahead of men in leading households, and we all know what a disaster that would be. Just take a look around you in the “modern” societies and see what garbage those societies consist of, and how disadvantaged women are in those societies, whereas it’s easy to see much value traditional societies put in women who fulfill their roles of being mothers and wives, not corporate servants.