Fire That Pig!


Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – Fire That Pig!

Fire That Pig!
ForbesFireHim
Contributor
ForbesFireHim

I am a career woman ‘was’ married to a career man for 15 years.  My career man didn’t earn as much as I did and I got tired of carrying the weight pertaining to our finances.   I dumped my career man and Forbes should dump Michael Noer.  How much is he paid to talk through his a$$?

08-26-2006 07:22 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
TraditionalGuys
Visitor
TraditionalGuys

So money is all that’s important to you…………..yup, that’s a career woman for ya!

08-26-2006 07:28 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
ForbesFireHim
Contributor
ForbesFireHim

No, actually, Family, Church and Career…in that order.  There was never enough money for my career man to do all his manly things with his manly friends.  I put our 2 kids through college with no help from him.  Bite me.

08-26-2006 07:32 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Pete
Regular Contributor
Pete

ForbesFireHim wrote:
I am a career woman ‘was’ married to a career man for 15 years. My career man didn’t earn as much as I did and I got tired of carrying the weight pertaining to our finances. I dumped my career man and Forbes should dump Michael Noer. How much is he paid to talk through his a$$?

You’re precisely the type Mr. Noer warned men not to marry. You offer nothing to men that a foreign, non-westernized, non-career, non-feminist woman doesn’t offer.

The harsh reality you do not yet seem to realize is that American women like you can easily be shunned and discarded by the wayside without any consequences whatsoever to men.

08-26-2006 07:33 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
ForbesFireHim
Contributor
ForbesFireHim

I happen to be a native Texan with a Masters in Food Science…get your facts straight, you idiot!  You’re just the type of man I’d drop in a heartbeat.

08-26-2006 07:37 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Devi
Newbie
Devi

As was referred to in another thread:

” A woman without a man is a fish without a bicycle!”

It is men who need women, not the other way around.

When men can start acting as mature equals instead of demanding babies, perhaps we can have some successful, mature marriages!

08-26-2006 07:37 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Cassius
Regular Contributor
Cassius
Say are you for real or are you just trying to make career women look worse than they are ? You basically confirmed everything Noer said and went well beyond. Eithier you are not too bright or a male that wants to support Noer with a swift move.

08-26-2006 07:45 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Jman
Contributor
Jman

Oh come on ForbesFireHim, you should actually be glad he stated his opinion, and you should be happy for all the men who think the same way to do so. Why? So in you don’t end up with the same guy your husband was. You should thank him for his honesty and shunning the political correctness, you know right now that you are not compatible with him. I’m sure you’d rather have know right off that your ex wasn’t going to be on the same page with you, instead you wasted 15 years on him. Do you really want all men to put on a really nice facade, only to find a few years later if that person was really a good mate to pick? I very much like that when I open up a candy bar that has a Snickers Bar to have a Snickers Bar. If one day I was to find a 3 Muskateers which I really don’t like, and from thence foward sometimes its one or the other, I very might well start skipping any candy bar with a Snickers wrapper.

08-26-2006 08:10 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
radiator
Regular Contributor
radiator

One of the things I’ve noticed consistently on these posts is that the women talk specifics: they talk about their own experience being married or not, etc., their family background, while the angry men just rant and rave.

Corcoran discusses her successful marriage–I’d like to know if Noer is married?  To what kind of woman–career or otherwise?  Has he ever been married, and if so, is he still?  Why hasn’t he gotten married, if not?  Are his parents still married?

The real issue beneath all of this is that American society is in crisis and people don’t know how to deal with it.  So they rant hysterically and irrationally about “wedge” issues like this one.  These issues are real, but they are also complex and multi-dimensional, which is why people feel out of control about them since they don’t know where to start or end.  Also, change takes time.  You can’t solve problems that arise from social change in a week, a month, a year.  Usually it takes a generation, if even that.  That’s just life–deal with it.

The culprit behind this Forbes melodrama is the editor who let someone like Noer run an opinion piece that does not take into account all of the issues involved.  It’s not a piece of studied journalism, but a superficial look at a big issue.  And of course it’s going to produce the kind of inflammatory responses you see here, because it’s not intended to illuminate anything, only to let Noer vent.  Classic American “journalism” at a low point.

Some men like to complain about “angry” women, but they are usually “angry” men who have trouble coping with change and need a scapegoat.  And they like to say women hate each other because it’s too threatening to consider otherwise.  As for fascist women on another post, no doubt that’s true.  Women aren’t angels–they are human, just like men.  But men seem to hate each other more than women do, if you look at, say WW1 where the men of Europe decimated each other.  If they hadn’t done so, you wouldn’t have had the revolution where women came in to work in industry because there weren’t any men left.  Wars are mostly fought and initiated by men.  Men are more likely to die a violent death, and more likely to commit suicide.  Or what about deadbeat dads?  What about all those single mothers out there whose partners just vanish?  Shouldn’t those men happily take on the responsibility of a stay-at-home mother as is being implied here?  If men were so happy with traditional marriages, why do they abandon their children and their mothers so often? Or, I just this minute heard a story on the radio (in Europe btw) about how a 4 year old boy was tied to a tree and battered with a brick by another boy; he’ll need plastic surgery.  Not common, but not uncommon either.  Don’t hear this about girls all that often (the increase in girl violence notwithstanding.) Also don’t hear a lot of stories about adult women abducting pre-teen girls or boys and locking them in basements for a decade like that guy in Austria–mostly it’s men who do this.  Don’t hear nearly as many stories about female serial killers as men.  So if women are angry… guys, stop the psychopath routine.  We’ll be less angry then, and we’re obviously hardly as angry as you are.  Until then, seems like a pretty rational response for us to be angry. With all the evidence it’s hard to fathom how men can’t hate each other at least as much or more than women.

My parents separated, and later divorced, in the early 80s because my career father cheated on my career mother.  My mother didn’t cheat on him (neither of them ever claimed that she did, and it wasn’t in keeping with her character–she was devastated when she found out he was cheating on her and she is a very loyal person).  So she moved me and my sibling to another state, became a single parent with two preadolescents, worked incredible hours at professional jobs, sent us both to private schools on her penny.  He didn’t pay child support or alimony, though he has contributed in some other ways, like contributing to our college expenses, buying cars and computers and so on.  He spent his money on his house, scuba gear, rebuilding a plane.  I love both my parents and get along great with them.  But I put the weight of the responsibility on my father (though not all of it because marriage is a two-way street) because he was just unable to deal emotionally with change.  He cared more about himself than he did about keeping the family together or about my mother’s well-being.  He cared about himself more than he did about his children because the divorce was devastating for us.

I was with a man eight years older than me for many years whom I didn’t marry.  We lived together for three years.  In that time he was unemployed three times–and I was never unemployed. He has a professional degree but it was difficult to find work in our city in his field.  Yet he also wasn’t very proactive, often turning down opportunities others would create for him to advance himself.   I paid the bills and he reimbursed me.  We were both carrying large amounts of student loan debt.  He drove my car because he didn’t have one until he received a very small inheritance from his father’s death, upon which he didn’t pay cash for his own car but used the money for a downpayment for a loan for a used high performance car which had super-high maintenance costs, putting himself further into debt.  He sat on the couch far too much watching television.  Basically, he was depressed and not dealing with it, as I told him many times, but I couldn’t make him confront it.  I could have dumped him at any point, but I waited until he had a job again before breaking up with him–I did that out of love and compassion, but there wasn’t any reason why I should dedicate my time, energy, love and resources for the rest of my life to a black hole of need.  I was his partner, not his mother.  He still has a mother and if he needs her he can go back to her.  I didn’t love him for money at all–otherwise I wouldn’t have gotten together with him in the first place, since he didn’t have any then either.  He was and is a very loving, intelligent, nonviolent, sexy, sensitive person, which is WHY I was with him in the first place.  But he was unable to pull his own weight, and I was barely scraping by myself in my underpaid professional job as an editor, and the relationship was sinking me into further debt.  I moved back  home with my mother for a long time after that to catch up financially (and she didn’t support me–I paid her rent).  He and I are still friends, we still love each other, we talk on the phone all the time, and he would like to get back together and get married to me–a smart, sexy, interesting, accomplished, hilarious, athletic, stylish career woman–and have kids.  I’m just not willing to consider that until I can see that he has changed, and it’s unlikely that he will change.  He has a good job now in his field, but it took him ten years after we broke up to get to the point where his finances are relatively stable and he isn’t on the edge of bankruptcy.  I don’t want a repeat of that experience.

I’d love to get married and have kids, but it will have to be with the right man who is emotionally mature, thoughtful, responsible and not addicted to kiddie porn.

Along these lines, one issue raised is that people in dual career marriages do have control over their own behavior and choices.  They can deal with childcare and stress if they want to, but many people just don’t make good decisions or cope well emotionally, no matter how educated they are.  It’s definitely true that a dual-career marriage puts a lot of stress on relationships, but then you just have to deal with it, like everything else in life.  It’s also true that American society is not designed to help families with their needs–single parents at least as much as marrieds.  I won’t even go into that discussion because everyone knows what the issues are.

08-26-2006 08:18 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Pete
Regular Contributor
Pete

ForbesFireHim wrote:
I happen to be a native Texan with a Masters in Food Science…get your facts straight, you idiot! You’re just the type of man I’d drop in a heartbeat.

None of your responses refutes Mr. Noer’s main point; on the contrary, you have only confirmed it.

But moreover, you confirm the ugly, distasteful, undesirable, and unappealing character of the modern American woman today – career or no career.

You also confirm the inherent inferiority of women to deal with thoughtful arguments and debate in a calm, rational, and thoughtful way.

But then, it is unseemly for men and women to debate anyway, for that assumes an equality where none exists. Men naturally lead, women follow.

The fact is, you are just one more sad example of an American woman damaged and ruined beyond repair. No man in his right mind would contemplate even for a minute marrying a worthless, foolish American woman like you. And though you may find solace in the delusion that you have some kind of leveraging power over men, the truth is in fact far different with grim, frightening implications for American women as a whole.

Message Edited by Pete on 08-26-2006 08:48 AM

08-26-2006 08:22 AM

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Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – Fire That Pig!

Re: Fire That Pig!
Termi0n
Regular Contributor
Termi0n

Devi wrote:
As was referred to in another thread:

” A woman without a man is a fish without a bicycle!”

It is men who need women, not the other way around.

When men can start acting as mature equals instead of demanding babies, perhaps we can have some successful, mature marriages!

Who built the society you live in? Whos gonna maintain it? You and your sisters? HA!

You know what they say about biting the hand that feeds you…

Women want fried ice. -Arab Proverb

08-26-2006 08:24 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
radiator
Regular Contributor
radiator

“You also confirm the inherent inferiority of women to deal with thoughtful arguments and debate in a calm, rational, and thoughtful way.

But then, it is unseemly for men and women to debate anyway, for that assumes an equality where none exists. Men naturally lead, women follow.”

You’ve just proven that, as a man, you can’t debate.  This isn’t proof, merely opinion.

08-26-2006 08:32 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
radiator
Regular Contributor
radiator

Rock on, FireHimForbes.  Don’t let the hysterical losers here get to you.

08-26-2006 08:40 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Jman
Contributor
Jman

Of course more men leave the children than the women. I may be no sociologist, but who do you think is going to leave a company sooner, the one who built it up or the hired hand to help out. I’m betting it’s the one who put in more blood, sweat, and tears. Women have both the blessing and the curse of giving birth to the child, just like the person who built the company has built the company, a curse because that person has put in for more work in creating it than the hired help, but also the blessing to know all the effort put in to the company is why it is what it is today. The woman has a stronger natural bond with the child than a man, she’s carried it to term and physiologically she’s also had the hormones which help create a bond. To me I’m convinced that the reason why the man is the traditional head of the household, is that it give him some ownership and a niche in the family, especially since he’s the most disposable of the whole bunch — man, woman, and child. To me any society that lets half of its men do what ever they please, and give all ownership of parenthood to the woman is asking for trouble. As the saying goes idle hands do the work of the devil. What does it matter if you screw what you please or drink what you please.

Also I think it is important to make a distinction to a man that dies in a war and a man that commits suicide. War typically happen when enough people start to want to protect what they love from those that they’d hate to take it over. People who go to war and fight in die, do it because they love something enough to want to protect it. They feel something is worth laying down ones life in order to protect what they love. Those that commit suicide do the ultimate rejection of life. To me it’s pretty clear that men would probably fill both roles. The one is the most dispensable of men and women are the men. Hence they will be the first wave of protectors of the family. Also the one most likely to commit suicide is not the one who is taking care of a child. More likely that will be the man, he’s got the least natural bond to a child.

08-26-2006 08:50 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Pelican
Regular Contributor
Pelican

You also confirm the inherent inferiority of women to deal with thoughtful arguments and debate in a calm, rational, and thoughtful way.

But then, it is unseemly for men and women to debate anyway, for that assumes an equality where none exists. Men naturally lead, women follow.

The fact is, you are just one more sad example of an American woman damaged and ruined beyond repair. No man in his right mind would contemplate even for a minute marrying a worthless, foolish American woman like you. And though you may find solace in the delusion that you have some kind of leveraging power over men, the truth is in fact far different with grim, frightening implications for American women as a whole.

Pete, this is overly harsh. This board has shown time and time again that there are plenty of men who retreat to name-calling and hysterics rather than logical debate — it’s certainly not limited to women. (As you promptly showed with your follow-up above.) The number of times Godwin’s Law has been triggered in this forum are too numerous to tally.

I can’t help but think that part of the male fury on this board — not to mention the “just you wait!” threats — is due to impotence. Not the sexual kind, but the knowledge that this “men lead, women follow” mantra is not true anymore, and even when women were restricted to the home, men often still weren’t the decisive force in the family. American women are not worthless or foolish; they may seem so to you, but there are plenty of other men out there who disagree. The majority of men, in fact. The quick-fix solution of finding a foreign wife is just as alarming, given that too many on this forum seem to believe that they can buy and obedient, gorgeous, submissive wife and import her. I’d love to see some figures on the success rates of those marriages, if anyone has them to hand.

But I think you know all this. I think you know that the proportion of men who find American women to be repugnant is quite small. I think you know that there is no real groundswell to force women back to traditional roles. And I think that absolutely maddens you, and we see the vitriolic result on the forum. But despite all you say, I have a career and am respected by male colleagues both home and abroad, have been considered wife material in the US and away, and basically can’t be brought to worry about the sort of retribution you threaten — because it’s mostly in your head, and that’s where it’s mostly going to stay.

08-26-2006 08:50 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
ForbesFireHim
Contributor
ForbesFireHim

Everybody just shut up.  We have more important things to worry about these days.  I’ve never heard such a bunch of **bleep** men in my life!  Thanks to those of you who support my situation.

Go out and have a great Saturday!

08-26-2006 08:59 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Termi0n
Regular Contributor
Termi0n

Pelican wrote:

Pete, this is overly harsh. This board has shown time and time again that there are plenty of men who retreat to name-calling and hysterics rather than logical debate — it’s certainly not limited to women.

I stopped reading right here. You’ve got a seriously twisted view of reality. Holy cow.

Women want fried ice. -Arab Proverb

08-26-2006 08:59 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
ForbesFireHim
Contributor
ForbesFireHim

I didn’t say “bleep.”  I said pu$$y!!!

08-26-2006 09:01 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Antiriad
Regular Contributor
Antiriad

Devi wrote:
As was referred to in another thread:

” A woman without a man is a fish without a bicycle!”

It is men who need women, not the other way around.

When men can start acting as mature equals instead of demanding babies, perhaps we can have some successful, mature marriages!

The irony is, women shun needy men but go absolutely gaga over the ones who don’t give them the time of day.

As for the statement “women don’t need men” – well one thing they do need is the protection of some man, even if he’s just a member of the police state upholding order. Funny how people like you are so quick to forget this little fact.

08-26-2006 09:01 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Pelican
Regular Contributor
Pelican

Termi0n wrote:

Pelican wrote:

Pete, this is overly harsh. This board has shown time and time again that there are plenty of men who retreat to name-calling and hysterics rather than logical debate — it’s certainly not limited to women.

I stopped reading right here. You’ve got a seriously twisted view of reality. Holy cow.

You’ll find that reality appears quite different when you bother to read beyond whatever trips your internal dislike censor.

For instance, I’ve read entire posts from men on this board filled with phrases like “feminazi”, “Ms Hitler”, “misandrist culture”, “feminist facists”, and many more. I tend to view all of these phrases as inflammatory and totally counter to constructive discussion, but have tried to focus on the point (however badly and reactively stated) the poster attempts to get across.

I suppose it’s just my female inability to comprehend the rules of a “calm, rational, thoughtful” debate?

Message Edited by Pelican on 08-26-2006 09:09 AM

08-26-2006 09:08 AM

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Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – Fire That Pig!

Re: Fire That Pig!
radiator
Regular Contributor
radiator

Jman,

I agree there is some truth in what you say, but I think you oversimplify.  No doubt women have a stronger bond (usually but not always) with the children for the reasons you mention.  But I think we have to be careful not to reduce everything to biology or to social determinism only–a lot of what is going on here is a question of ethics, too.  The latest mantra (in general) is that we should all just accept that men are just men, women are just women, etc., back to the 50s when everything was nice and we were winning the Cold War, etc., backed up by the new information about biology and so on.

But the guys here want their cake and to eat it too.  They want women in the kitchen with babies, but when they have that, somehow a whole lot of them suddenly change their minds and disappear.  So what’s the real truth?  That men can’t bond with anyone emotionally because they lack sufficient oxytocin?  That men (and women) can’t make any rational, ethical decisions because we are all just biologically and socially determined?  Or do men really want a mommy they can also screw, in which case babies are just an inconvenient side-effect of that true goal, to be tolerated when it’s convenient, but if not, either to cheat on them or leave them?  Do women really want children or are they driven by hormones to have babies even when their life circumstances can’t support them?  And so on.  I think these arguments tend to polarize things.  If people are really that irrational, why do we need higher education?  Courts of justice?  Medicine to improve our lives?  If those things aren’t going to make a difference, who cares?  Progress would then be a myth (and maybe it is).  Why need any career at all?  Let’s go back to living in caves–that’s the real conclusion of this regressive argument a lot of the traditionalists are making.  It’s a misleading argument based on a lot of unexamined logical fallacies.

I do know several good fathers, even several good *single* fathers.  One has an alcholic ex-wife.  So it’s not impossible.  But these men are very emotionally mature, secure in their professional jobs, and, most importantly, not insecure.  They are open to dialogue.  It’s not the end of their world if a woman has a thought of her own or challenges them–in fact, they like it.  They like lively, smart women (Iike me, and perhaps you).  The one with the alcoholic ex-wife is particularly admirable because after 20 years in IT, he’s now running his own extremely lucrative tech business, and he NEVER went to college.  He got married at 18 to the alcholic who already had a kid, they had another kid, and from then on he busted his rear supporting the family, until the alcoholism started to come to the fore.  He also admits that he was so involved with his work that he had no clue what was going on until it was too late.  But he’s a great guy because he cares and he tries to right his wrongs.  It’s the best one can do.

As for suicide and war, I wasn’t suggesting–and that should be clear from my post–that these were equivalent.  I don’t agree 100% with your claim for why wars are started or why people join them, but that’s another set of issues.

As for suicide, I just read yesterday a long article on men and depression and suicide posted on MSN.com Health and reprinted from the Mayo Clinic.  There is still much debate over why men commit suicide more than women, but one speculation is that women are more likely to get help because they are socialized that that is OK, while men are more likely to direct their suffering into self-destructive (or, I would add, other-destructive) behaviors, such as drug abuse, risk-taking behavior, and suicide.  Of course, women do this stuff too, no doubt about it.  But they still aren’t serial killers at the same rate as men.  Is that the flip-side of the oxytocin issue?

08-26-2006 09:15 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
radiator
Regular Contributor
radiator

“The irony is, women shun needy men but go absolutely gaga over the ones who don’t give them the time of day.”

You obviously didn’t read my post.  Or ForbesFireHim since we both contradicted your overgeneralization.

“As for the statement “women don’t need men” – well one thing they do need is the protection of some man, even if he’s just a member of the police state upholding order. Funny how people like you are so quick to forget this little fact.”

We don’t forget it.  We just don’t equate the law enforcement system with men.  It’s a system, not a gender.  Women are part of it, too.  Couple of women have been on the Supreme Court, for instance.  Even Italy has women judges and police officers!  Gosh.  Or how about congresswomen–let’s pick a conservative one just to keep you happy.  Or even those happily “fascist women” discussed on another post?  Please, say something worth debating instead of wasting our time with inane sub-college-freshmen comments.

08-26-2006 09:22 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Termi0n
Regular Contributor
Termi0n

Pelican wrote:
I suppose it’s just my female inability to comprehend the rules of a “calm, rational, thoughtful” debate?

“there are plenty of men who retreat to name-calling and hysterics rather than logical debate”

You just described 99% of the posts by females on this forum. Inability to comprehend is something you all seem to have in common.

Message Edited by Termi0n on 08-26-2006 09:23 AM

Women want fried ice. -Arab Proverb

08-26-2006 09:22 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
radiator
Regular Contributor
radiator

Oh, there you go again, you silly man.  Inability to comprehend what?  Inability to debate what?  More “hasty generalization” unsupported by actual claims.  Are you familiar with the concept of “logical fallacies”?  It’s usually taught in freshman English courses in college.  Have you been to college?  I submit for the second time that it’s the women here who are offering actual data and the men are just ranting with hysterical ranting.  What’s your life like?  Are you married?  If so, can you get your wife on here to support your ideas?  Put your money where your mouth is.  I’d really like to know how many of the men posting here are married and would be happy to have their wives come on and corroborate what they are saying.

08-26-2006 09:27 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Pelican
Regular Contributor
Pelican
So your response is a made-up statistic and yet another random accusation rather than picking up the actual thread of the debate started (as a refresher: “women are incapable of debate”)?

If you’re going to present men as the master debaters, you might as well put in the effort to try and prove the point with your own posts.

08-26-2006 09:30 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Pete
Regular Contributor
Pete

Pelican wrote:
Pete, this is overly harsh. This board has shown time and time again that there are plenty of men who retreat to name-calling and hysterics rather than logical debate — it’s certainly not limited to women. (As you promptly showed with your follow-up above.) The number of times Godwin’s Law has been triggered in this forum are too numerous to tally.

I can’t help but think that part of the male fury on this board — not to mention the “just you wait!” threats — is due to impotence. Not the sexual kind, but the knowledge that this “men lead, women follow” mantra is not true anymore, and even when women were restricted to the home, men often still weren’t the decisive force in the family. American women are not worthless or foolish; they may seem so to you, but there are plenty of other men out there who disagree. The majority of men, in fact. The quick-fix solution of finding a foreign wife is just as alarming, given that too many on this forum seem to believe that they can buy and obedient, gorgeous, submissive wife and import her. I’d love to see some figures on the success rates of those marriages, if anyone has them to hand.

But I think you know all this. I think you know that the proportion of men who find American women to be repugnant is quite small. I think you know that there is no real groundswell to force women back to traditional roles. And I think that absolutely maddens you, and we see the vitriolic result on the forum. But despite all you say, I have a career and am respected by male colleagues both home and abroad, have been considered wife material in the US and away, and basically can’t be brought to worry about the sort of retribution you threaten — because it’s mostly in your head, and that’s where it’s mostly going to stay.

…and none of this has any relevance whatsoever to anything.

In fact, whatever you say can have no relevance as long as what has been said of American women remains undisputed and unrefuted.

And the fact is, American women offer nothing to men that can’t be obtained from a foreign, non-westernized, non-career, non-feminist woman.

Moreover, American women like you can easily be shunned and discarded by the wayside without any consequences whatsoever to men. Nothing has been demonstrated to prove or show otherwise.

That’s really it. All else is bull$*!t.

Message Edited by Pete on 08-26-2006 09:47 AM

08-26-2006 09:40 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
radiator
Regular Contributor
radiator

See, the real problem is that men–or maybe just Pete and a couple other guys on this post, so as not to overgeneralize–want to win.  They don’t love women.  They just want to conquer and dominate them.  They want everything on their terms and if not, then they will go find some desperate woman in a country where the men are even worse than American (like in China, where they like to abort their girl children so that now the men in some areas are having trouble finding women to marry–maybe they should come over here and snap up the surplus of cool, chic, smart American women).  And, of course, their sad little egos will be soothed by having a nice slave to call their own.  Pathetic?  Yup.  Now, stop wasting our time with your whining and go find yourself a slave.

08-26-2006 09:50 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Antiriad
Regular Contributor
Antiriad

radiator wrote:
See, the real problem is that men–or maybe just Pete and a couple other guys on this post, so as not to overgeneralize–want to win.  They don’t love women.  They just want to conquer and dominate them.  They want everything on their terms and if not, then they will go find some desperate woman in a country where the men are even worse than American (like in China, where they like to abort their girl children so that now the men in some areas are having trouble finding women to marry–maybe they should come over here and snap up the surplus of cool, chic, smart American women).  And, of course, their sad little egos will be soothed by having a nice slave to call their own.  Pathetic?  Yup.  Now, stop wasting our time with your whining and go find yourself a slave.

Did you get tired of writing anything original, so now you just cut and paste the same comments everywhere? Explain to me how this is “contributing” to specific discussions.

P.S. I already found myself a non-career woman; couldn’t be happier. I’m just here to debate sad, lonely women like yourself

Message Edited by Antiriad on 08-26-2006 10:02 AM

08-26-2006 10:02 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
radiator
Regular Contributor
radiator

Who said I’m sad and lonely?  I just went on a date with a great guy last night.  I had another date last Monday. Last year a gorgeous Italian took me on a beach holiday to Italy for five days where we had lots of great food, great beachs, and sex.  Guys have bicycled fifty miles and flown across multiple countries to come see me.  I’m having a good time.

Hmm–my posts are pretty much the longest ones anywhere on this forum, especially compared to the hysterical men like you who just echo each other.  The double-posting was relevant because I had just posted the slave comment to Pete and then read sha_nnie’s and decided that it bore posting there, too.  But of course I didn’t claim it was original, did I?  I merely quoted myself–even, gosh, using quotation marks.  So, you’re wrong again!

Could you get your wife to comment?  I would really love to hear from her personally the benefits of a traditional marriage andher views on the rest of these posts.  Seems that the traditional women’s voice isn’t really appearing here…. now, why could that be……….

08-26-2006 10:10 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Antiriad
Regular Contributor
Antiriad
Then you must be in your 20s/30s. It changes nothing about my statement, reality hits sooner or later, dear.

But now I must go mow my lawn. Have fun, you know it’ll end. That’s the best part of it – for men, their toughest years come first; for women, last.

Message Edited by Antiriad on 08-26-2006 10:15 AM

08-26-2006 10:12 AM

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Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – Fire That Pig!

Re: Fire That Pig!
Termi0n
Regular Contributor
Termi0n

radiator wrote:

Could you get your wife to comment?  I would really love to hear from her personally the benefits of a traditional marriage andher views on the rest of these posts.  Seems that the traditional women’s voice isn’t really appearing here…. now, why could that be……….

You missed this one by about 8 pages:

http://forums.forbes.com/forbes/board/message?board.id=respond_marry_career_woman&message.id=368

Women want fried ice. -Arab Proverb

08-26-2006 10:19 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
radiator
Regular Contributor
radiator

Darling young man,  kindly do not condescend to your elders and betters. As a matter of FACT, no!  I’m turning 40 this fall!  And still having a fantastic time!  Enjoy your lawn.  I’m off to make history and have great sex and delicious dinners all at the same time.  Maybe have a baby, maybe not.  Still waiting to hear from your traditional girlfriend!  Put her on while you’re mowing!

08-26-2006 10:19 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
radiator
Regular Contributor
radiator

I’m sure there are some traditional women who are happy.  Good for them.

08-26-2006 10:22 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Termi0n
Regular Contributor
Termi0n

radiator wrote:

Darling young man,  kindly do not condescend to your elders and betters. As a matter of FACT, no!  I’m turning 40 this fall!  And still having a fantastic time!  Enjoy your lawn.  I’m off to make history and have great sex and delicious dinners all at the same time.  Maybe have a baby, maybe not.  Still waiting to hear from your traditional girlfriend!  Put her on while you’re mowing!

Future bag/cat lady.

Women want fried ice. -Arab Proverb

08-26-2006 10:33 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
radiator
Regular Contributor
radiator

1) Dream on.  I am currently at one of the world’s top ten universities.  No guarantee, but obviously men’s jobs aren’t guaranteed either, since so many of them are going to India and China, etc.  Do you read the news?

2) Why do you hate bag/cat ladies?  What did they do to you?  Poor man.  I really feel sorry for you.  You have to abuse people who seem weaker and less powerful because you lack a strong sense of self, and you have no sense of compassion or understanding.  Have you tried therapy?  Perhaps SSRIs?  Are you happily married yourself or are you afraid of becoming a bag man yourself (you know, those guys on street corners with brown bags of Mad Dog and Thunderbird)?

Resorting to insult is just not an argument.  We said this already.  Can you please get it through your thick skull and stop boring us silly.

08-26-2006 10:38 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
justcoll
Visitor
justcoll

HOLY TOLEDO people, get a grip on life.  I don’t think that being a “career woman” is the issue at hand here.  It is the changing of times.  Men have “had their cake and ate it too” for many years because they were in the workforce with a few women way back when.  Now many more women have gotten wiser, and have realized that there are no guarantees that the man you married will be there forever.  They may need a way to support themselves and children.  As for the cheating thing on women’s part, well “hello” alot of men have done that for years, because they kept their wives at home.  Yes opportunity knocks more often when women work, but the bottom line is if a man and or woman are happy and content in their relationship, working and insecurity should not even be the issue.  Working or not, you know if there are problems that exist in your marriage/relationship, working just gives the person a more secure way out.
As for women/men needing one another, in alot of ways they do.  My opinion is this, there comes in time in life when your thoughts on life change.  I was a career person all my life, quite capable of taking care of myself.  Got married and he couldn’t deal with the fact that I made more money, as did all the men I worked with.  My life does not revolve around money, I don’t need a man to take care of me, as I’ve done well taking care of myself and my children for the last 14 years.  I WANT a man to help me with the “manly” things that need done, but more importantly I want a man to be my friend and for companionship, I want to be wanted for the person I am, not for what I can do for you.  I guess you can say I lean more towards the “tradional way of life”.  My parents were never divorced and I certainly never got married to get divorced.  Today I believe there are way too many weak excuses to get married and divorced and face it, the ones that hurt are the KIDS, just take a look around.  I do believe in raising children you need the equal balance of a mother and father role.  My kids are now raised, and I may be a little prejuidiced, but they have done good, for all the “nonsense” that they had to endure in their life.  The bottom line question is…….Who really does want to grow old alone????  If it is you then knock yourself out with your career, just remember one day that career will come to an end……..”Then what??”

Message Edited by justcoll on 08-26-2006 11:16 AM

08-26-2006 10:56 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
sunji
Contributor
sunji

ForbesFireHim is absolutely right. Michael Noer is a bigot and should be fired immediately.

Yes, that’s right. I said “bigot”. Misogyny is just as much bigotry as is racism, homophobia or any other kind.

If anyone wrote an article saying that (insert any race, ethnic group, or whatever here) shouldn’t have careers like white men, the article would never have made it online and this thread wouldn’t exist.

Oh, and by the way, Mr Noer- it is possible that the reason women lacking careers are statistically less likely to divorce is that they simply lack the financial means to escape a bad marriage?

08-26-2006 11:12 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
radiator
Regular Contributor
radiator

Go sunji!!!!

08-26-2006 11:14 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
ForbesFireHim
Contributor
ForbesFireHim

Amen!  Sunji kicks a$$ and takes names later!  All of you lazy, disgusting, dominating, arrogant, child molesting, so called men…give it a rest!  Get your ‘woman’ to get you a beer and go lay on the couch and scratch yourselves!

I’m off to make something of myself, volunteer my time, help someone in need and be happy!

08-26-2006 11:41 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Cassius
Regular Contributor
Cassius
SOoooo gettin married was not a good thing to do for your hubby.

08-26-2006 12:01 PM

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Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – Fire That Pig!

don’t kill the messenger
acewedler
Newbie
acewedler
don’t kill the messenger just because you don’t like the message!
he made many good points: my career women friends DO have fewer children than the stay at home moms, they DO get fed up more easily when their spouse doesn’t keep up ( on whatever level). many of my friends go on and on about how much they love their children ( and i believe them) but they also say they don’t know if they’d do it again.
i am 48 , female and have had a career. women need to get thicker skins. i have never felt discriminated against but i never allowed that to happen. don’t let people paint you with their brush and it won’t happen.
Forbes, don’t act in a reactionary manner.

08-26-2006 12:10 PM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Pete
Regular Contributor
Pete

sunji wrote:

If anyone wrote an article saying that (insert any race, ethnic group, or whatever here) shouldn’t have careers like white men, the article would never have made it online and this thread wouldn’t exist.

WRONG, dimwit. He never said women shouldn’t have careers. He said men shouldn’t marry women who have careers. Try reading for meaning next time – you’ll sound smarter that way.

Oh, and by the way, Mr Noer- it is possible that the reason women lacking careers are statistically less likely to divorce is that they simply lack the financial means to escape a bad marriage?

Ask me if I give a f**k. Your whiny bull$*!t has nothing to do with the issue at hand – namely, that men shouldn’t marry career women.

08-26-2006 12:17 PM

Re: Fire That Pig!
moneyneversleep
Regular Contributor
moneyneversleep

Here are the actual options for you to have children:

1.  Invitro
2.  A surrogate
3.  Adopt

It is unlikely at 40 that you will find someone, other than a sperm donor, who will have children with you.  If you are at a University you are likely not tenured and not making very much of an income.  This further limits your options.  If you elect to adopt/invitro/surrogate you will be a single mother and that empirical data and statistics clearly support that children raised in this environment tend to be more likely to engage in risky behavior, to be criminals, to have dysfuntional relationships with others that lead to unproductive lives, etc.  There are exceptions to the rule, but they are only exceptions.  Being independent is a good thing but having/raising children is supposed to be an act of selflessness with the primary focus being the children to afford them the best chance of success and survival when they reach adulthood.  A single mother is the worst possible avenue for this to occur.

I am happy for you. You may find a man who suits your needs but it is unlikely that you will have a children under any condition with them unless you elect 1-3 above.  Maureen Dowd is a classic example.  She was not an unattractive woman at one time.  She choose her career, and that is fine.  It eliminated her from swimming in the gene pool with men that she wished to be with.  She now complains that these men who rejected her are either: 1) Gay, 2) intimidated by her, or 3) some other unsupported statement.  She is wrong.  Most don’t need the aggravation and have chosen women more suitable for them.  She eliminated herself, as most women in her position (and your position) do.  This is neither bad nor good.  It is merely the truth.   Don’t be angry that your options are limited or that men don’t wish to be with you for any length of time.  It is their choice to ultimately anyway to move on and not be with you.  You can’t fault them.  You may find solace for a short time with a younger man, but you are only a play toy for him to practice on as he will see no future with you.  He is prepping himself for the one who may select later, and it won’t be you.  If it is, he will leave when you become too old, angry accusatory, insecure when he looks at younger, beautiful women.  This is as it should be.  The writer for Forbes was correct.  If, as a man, you wish to have a relationship that sustains don’t marry a career woman.  Sure, f&ck them and play with them, but don’t have a serious relationship.  It will go no where and will cause problems.

08-26-2006 01:08 PM

Re: Fire That Pig!
sunji
Contributor
sunji

Pete:

“Ask me if I give a f**k. Your whiny bull$*!t has nothing to do with the issue at hand – namely, that men shouldn’t marry career women.”

LOL…..I would, but I don’t care if you give a f**k. You just keep digging that hole.

08-26-2006 03:41 PM

Re: Fire That Pig!
sunji
Contributor
sunji

For example, tike this little gem you wrote in another thread. This is truly entertaining, and proof that you’re a pathetic little bigot.

“Yes, it’s true that he didn’t go far enough. It’s not just career women who make bad wives. It’s also NON-career women as well.

The fact is, American women as a whole make bad wives. They lack femininity in their personality and attitude, and they behave very poorly towards others, especially men. In fact, this observation has become more and more noticeable to increasing numbers of men, not just in America but in other countries as well.

A man’s best bet is to find a foreign woman overseas, preferably in a non-westernized, non-feminist society, and choose from the huge surplus of sweet, feminine women who would jump at the chance to be a dutiful wife for an American man.

American women are worthless. And that’s no exaggeration.”

08-26-2006 03:49 PM

Re: don’t kill the messenger
C2shiningC
Contributor
C2shiningC

acewedler…. will you marry me?? Loved your post 5 threads above! Okay, so your married; do you have sister??

08-26-2006 04:37 PM

Re: Fire That Pig!
leeraconteur
Regular Contributor
leeraconteur

One of the things I’ve noticed consistently on these posts is that the women talk specifics: they talk about their own experience being married or not, etc., their family background, while the angry men just rant and rave.

The women are citing personal experience.  Data is not the plural of anecdote.

Noer cited multiple sources in the original, banned slideshow that was posted Monday.

Source of Slides:
http://pandagon.net/2006/08/23/cowards-say-we-didnt-say-it-and-even-if-we-did-you-cant-prove-it

The women cite no studies, Noer cited many.

It is clear the women are posting only unsubstantiated opinion, as they disagree with the article.  Exceptions to the rule do not abrogate said rule.

08-26-2006 05:14 PM

Re: Fire That Pig!
sunji
Contributor
sunji

The women cited no studies, Noer cited many.

Yes, and at the end at the end of his article, he snuck this little tidbit in:

“A word of caution, though: As with any social scientific study, it’s important not to confuse correlation with causation………….”

In other words, studies can be twisted to support any agenda.

08-26-2006 05:22 PM

Re: Fire That Pig!
leeraconteur
Regular Contributor
leeraconteur

The women cited no studies, Noer cited many.

Yes, and at the end at the end of his article, he snuck this little tidbit in:

“A word of caution, though: As with any social scientific study, it’s important not to confuse correlation with causation………….”

In other words, studies can be twisted to support any agenda.

I am supposed to think that you and many of the feminist and career women on this forum don’t have an agenda?  Reject that part of reality you don’t agree with, but you are right merely because you believe it to be so.  If studies can be twisted to support any agenda, then why didn’t Elizabeth Corcoran cite studies to twist it to her agenda?  Why haven’t you or the others who disagree?  If you can’t, or haven’t, then any impartial observer would rightly conclude that Noer backed up his opinion and you have not.

What is more credible – the opinion of 10 or 20 women on this forum posting in a furor because they disagree, or the multiple studies cited?

When men get slammed for allegedly being violent molesters who beat their wives, or the lie that 1 in 4 women on college campuses will be raped, or men don’t pay child support and are deadbeats get propagated in articles, as opinion masquerading as fact, without support or with studies twisted to support that agenda, did any women complain?

No.

Thus I conclude that you agree with said man bashing but don’t agree with Noer’s article based soley on opinion and personal bias.

Ergo you have an agenda, that isn’t even backed up by studies.

08-26-2006 05:40 PM

Re: Fire That Pig!
sunji
Contributor
sunji

I don’t need a study to support my “agenda” that women should have the same rights as men.

08-26-2006 05:49 PM

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Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – Fire That Pig!

Re: Fire That Pig!
leeraconteur
Regular Contributor
leeraconteur

I don’t need a study to support my “agenda” that women should have the same rights as men.

That’s not at issue, ergo a Red Herring.

What this discussion is about is whether career women make good wives, and many studies show that they do not.  Many men post in agreement with stories of disagreeable career oriented wives.  Many women post personal attacks, opinion, but not studies (which you believe can be slanted to support any agenda).

This discourse has nothing to do with women having the same rights as men, it has to do with men being able to freely make an informed choice, whether you like or agree with that choice or not.

Being of the opinion that the article should be pulled would limit information men can make choices upon.  Pulling the bibliography (which has happened in this case) to the original slideshow, would also limit the information available to men to make an informed choice.

Why would you be so vehemently against two adults freely chosing to marry and have an arrangement where she stays home, working only partime for extra income at most, while devoting herself to building a loving, caring home where she cooks, cleans, rears and educates children, has a meal on the table waiting for her husband when he gets home?  What is so offensive about two adults chosing such an arrangement?  It worked swimmingly until 1963.

Why do you have such a prejudice against wives who stay at home most or all of the time?

Message Edited by leeraconteur on 08-26-2006 06:05 PM

08-26-2006 05:58 PM

Re: Fire That Pig!
sunji
Contributor
sunji

Many men post in agreement with stories or disagreeable career oriented wives.

You were just bitching a few posts ago about women citing personal experience and then stated it was not “data”. I guess it does count as “data” when it comes from a male, though.

Many women post personal attacks, opinion, but not studies.

I saw much more of this from the men here.

08-26-2006 06:08 PM

Re: Fire That Pig!
sunji
Contributor
sunji

Why would you be so vehemently against two adults freely chosing to marry and have an arrangement where she stays home, working only partime for extra income at most, while devoting herself to building a loving, caring home where she cooks, cleans, rears and educates children, has a meal on the table waiting for her husband when he gets home?  What is so offensive about two adults chosing such an arrangement?  It worked swimmingly until 1963.

Why do you have such a prejudice against wives who stay at home most or all of the time?

Now you’re just making $hit up. Go ahead, find one post on here where I said a single bad word about stay at home wives and repost it here.

In fact, I’d love to be one myself, but the current ecomonic climate makes it impossible unless we win the lottery.

08-26-2006 06:13 PM

Re: Fire That Pig!
leeraconteur
Regular Contributor
leeraconteur

Go ahead, find one post on here where I said a single bad word about stay at home wives and repost it here.   In fact, I’d love to be one myself, but the current ecomonic climate makes it impossible unless we win the lottery.

Then we are both in agreement that women that stay home to build a nurturing household are preferrable to women who do not.

08-26-2006 06:31 PM

Re: Fire That Pig!
sunji
Contributor
sunji

If by “preferable” you mean it’s less work to be unemployed than employed, then yes. Who wouldn’t quit their job if they suddenly became independently wealthy?

A woman who doesn’t have a career will be fine if she has a man to support her. The reality you fail to grasp is that many women will not have this luxury.

I think you, the author of this article and the other haters on here simply don’t want women to be able to support themselves in the event that a man can’t do it for them. Women in that situation are easier to control. That’s the real issue here.

Message Edited by sunji on 08-26-2006 06:50 PM

08-26-2006 06:39 PM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Pete
Regular Contributor
Pete

Pete wrote:
“Ask me if I give a f**k. Your whiny bull$*!t has nothing to do with the issue at hand – namely, that men shouldn’t marry career women.”

sunji wrote:

LOL…..I would, but I don’t care if you give a f**k.

Good. Then quit your childish whining about women being imaginary “victims,” and stay on topic.

You just keep digging that hole.

I have no idea what you’re talking about. My guess would be that this non sequitor outburst of yours is some kind of attempt at lashing out your bitter, angry emotions.

sunji wrote:

For example, tike this little gem you wrote in another thread. This is truly entertaining, and proof that you’re a pathetic little bigot.

“Yes, it’s true that he didn’t go far enough. It’s not just career women who make bad wives. It’s also NON-career women as well.

The fact is, American women as a whole make bad wives. They lack femininity in their personality and attitude, and they behave very poorly towards others, especially men. In fact, this observation has become more and more noticeable to increasing numbers of men, not just in America but in other countries as well.

A man’s best bet is to find a foreign woman overseas, preferably in a non-westernized, non-feminist society, and choose from the huge surplus of sweet, feminine women who would jump at the chance to be a dutiful wife for an American man.

American women are worthless. And that’s no exaggeration.”

Thank you for quoting what I consider one of my better posts. It’s definitely a post worth repeating and circulating for the male readers out there.

The reality is that, at a minimum, men lose nothing in avoiding American women entirely. Take you, for example. The churlish attitude and personality you display here only reinforce what I wrote about American women.

So by ignoring you altogether, and replacing you with a foreign, non-westernized, non-career woman, chances are a man would be much happier and more fulfilled than they would be if they chose a worthless, piece-of-garbage American woman like you.

Message Edited by Pete on 08-27-2006 06:35 AM

08-26-2006 07:24 PM

Re: Fire That Pig!
PANDORASBOX123
Regular Contributor
PANDORASBOX123

Pete–you offer nothing to American women…What makes you think some Russian beauty would want you?  Oh–maybe for a green card…

08-26-2006 10:03 PM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Pete
Regular Contributor
Pete

PANDORASBOX123 wrote:
Pete–you offer nothing to American women…What makes you think some Russian beauty would want you? Oh–maybe for a green card…

And your childish, empty retort still hasn’t addressed the point made about you American women – which is the real issue here. You still have not demonstrated value to men.

But more interesting than that is your utter unwillingness to demonstrate any value whatsoever to men.

This is very telling about the kind of people you American women are, and may help to explain why you American women are held in very low repute among not just overseas men, but even women as well.

So on that basis, it’s not unreasonable for a perceptive man to conclude that American women (career or no career) would be generally poor marriage prospects.

08-27-2006 07:25 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Pelican
Regular Contributor
Pelican
Pete, you’ll have to remind me — what exactly mints you as an expert in what foreigners think of American women? And I’m talking personal experience, please.

Obviously, if you hate American women, we’re more than happy to be shot of you. I’m sympathetic to any mail-order brides who don’t see this side of you coming, but I suppose they knew the risks going in.

I’m beginning to wonder if this is some sort of generational divide, because the 20-something professionals I know who have been getting married envision a far more equal homelife than you keep threatening women with. All of this “you’ll be a childless 40 year old spinster” talk is very inflammatory, but most of my coworkers and friends are much more even about splitting family and career time than you seem to be. Men are happier to find professions where they’ll be able to cut back hours. Women are happy to do the same. Together, they plan families, move to a place where their chosen economic status suits them, and they’re off. Frankly, I’m not meeting men that WANT a woman who stays at home. I’m meeting men who want a capable partner, someone they can rely on if today’s fluctuating workplace conditions mean they suddenly find themselves redundant.

The mindset that men are incapable of adaptation is an insult to men, as is the insinuation that men aren’t capable of making concessions that trade manly income for manly at-home time. Men I know WANT quality time with their families, not to just go out and earn the money and then come home when the kids are already tucked into bed.

08-27-2006 08:04 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
radiator
Regular Contributor
radiator

Personal experience is not the same as “opinion.”  The reason why Corcoran wrote about her own lie–and I about mine–was that Noer was arguing for generalizations.  Our experience contradicted those.

That’s also why I pointed out that almost none of the men posting here are willing to talk about they OWN lives and experience.  Instead, they prefer to make random generalizations which are harder to attack because they are mere empty rhetoric.

I could cite a lot of studies, but frankly it’s not worth my time because the level of dicourse on this blog, like so much of America, is so low and hysterical.  The men here don’t want to learn anything or understand anything.  They want to whine about how the world isn’t exactly suited to their needs anymore (which it never was, but they like to think so–they obviously have not read any labor history, social history, American history, European history, history of China, etc.).

To speak for myself, I am not vehemently against a wife who stays home. As a matter of fact, I would love to stay home for a while because I have some projects I would really like to work on and I need more free time.  Would you like to volunteer?  I’m a great cook. I love hot sex.  Let me know and I will send you a questionnaire to fill out.

But most of the ranting here isn’t about a “wife” who stays home and does what *she* likes! Most of the debate on the blog has been about how women should stay home to take care of the kids because the two career home has ruined the family and turned American culture to shreds.  That in itself is a debatable claim, actually.

Of course men should make an informed choice–so should women.  They should find out if the guy is a sexist pig or not before they shack up with him.  Sadly, a lot of women are still romantically hoping that men have a heart and not just a couple of gonads.  They hope that men can actually love and care about them not merely as an ego-booster or spawning-machine.  Not merely as the “mother of the children I really don’t want anyway because I’m going to cheat on her and dump her” but as a real person in her own right.  This is the issue.  Of course, some women merely see men as sources of Prada.  Actually, I don’t think this is a good trend.  Just because the shoe is on the other foot doesn’t mean it fits.

Alimony and child support laws were created to protect women who stayed home with children, lost all marketability in the workplace, and then were completely impoverished when the guy dumped her.  This used to happen countless times.  And still does!  That’s the problem with all those welfare mothers!  The only difference is that the fathers of the welfare kids don’t have any money to pay alimony and child support!  But the middle and upper middle class men do!  Pay up, dudes.  It’s your DNA.

Actually, it didn’t work until 1963.  Another empty claim.  It worked for MEN (some of them).  But not for women–at least, not for most women.  Go read some social history.  I can’t be bothered to give you a free education.

08-27-2006 09:39 AM

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Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – Fire That Pig!

Re: Fire That Pig!
sunji
Contributor
sunji

LOL, Pete…..more spewings of hatred from an bitter, uptight, overreactive, power-hungry, misogynist loser

It’s so cute when the dinosaurs get mad.

Later, hater

Message Edited by sunji on 08-27-2006 10:04 AM

08-27-2006 09:44 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Pete
Regular Contributor
Pete

Pelican wrote:
Pete, you’ll have to remind me — what exactly mints you as an expert in what foreigners think of American women? And I’m talking personal experience, please.

Obviously, if you hate American women, we’re more than happy to be shot of you. I’m sympathetic to any mail-order brides who don’t see this side of you coming, but I suppose they knew the risks going in.

I’m beginning to wonder if this is some sort of generational divide, because the 20-something professionals I know who have been getting married envision a far more equal homelife than you keep threatening women with. All of this “you’ll be a childless 40 year old spinster” talk is very inflammatory, but most of my coworkers and friends are much more even about splitting family and career time than you seem to be. Men are happier to find professions where they’ll be able to cut back hours. Women are happy to do the same. Together, they plan families, move to a place where their chosen economic status suits them, and they’re off. Frankly, I’m not meeting men that WANT a woman who stays at home. I’m meeting men who want a capable partner, someone they can rely on if today’s fluctuating workplace conditions mean they suddenly find themselves redundant.

The mindset that men are incapable of adaptation is an insult to men, as is the insinuation that men aren’t capable of making concessions that trade manly income for manly at-home time. Men I know WANT quality time with their families, not to just go out and earn the money and then come home when the kids are already tucked into bed.

Like a typical woman, you talk a lot, but you’re saying nothing.

You persist in dancing around the one issue that won’t go away – the poor, unfit quality of American women. And once again, you waste my time with your tedious, insincere bull$hit.

No one has disputed or challenged the claim that men are better off avoiding you American women and looking elsewhere for foreign, non-westernized women.

No one has disputed or challenged the claim that men lose nothing in doing so.

American women have made their bed, and they’ll have to lie in it. In the meantime, the men here should be aware of all options available as far as looking for better women are concerned.

08-27-2006 03:33 PM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Pelican
Regular Contributor
Pelican

Like a typical woman, you talk a lot, but you’re saying nothing.

You persist in dancing around the one issue that won’t go away – the poor, unfit quality of American women. And once again, you waste my time with your tedious, insincere bull$hit.

No one has disputed or challenged the claim that men are better off avoiding you American women and looking elsewhere for foreign, non-westernized women.

No one has disputed or challenged the claim that men lose nothing in doing so.

American women have made their bed, and they’ll have to lie in it. In the meantime, the men here should be aware of all options available as far as looking for better women are concerned.

But Pete, I’m clearly in a better position to judge the quality of American women than you, especially in relation to foreign women, given I’ve been living among them for years.

The foreign women aren’t looking for you, friend. They really aren’t, they know what you’re looking for when you come knocking and they might as well get that at home where they can stay near their families. And the opinion you have of how American women are viewed by foreigners doesn’t have anything to back it up, which doesn’t surprise me, given it’s a perspective I’ve never experienced in years lived abroad.

So really, you waste MY time in substituting anecdote for experience.

08-27-2006 04:18 PM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Pete
Regular Contributor
Pete

Pelican wrote:
But Pete, I’m clearly in a better position to judge the quality of American women than you,

No, actually I don’t think you are, and that’s a very fatuous claim you make. You have no particular special powers of observation. And making sound judgments about the quality of American women doesn’t require any such powers either.

especially in relation to foreign women, given I’ve been living among them for years.

And I couldn’t care less. American women still are of poor quality, and generally unfit wives or companions for men.

The foreign women aren’t looking for you, friend.

Well, normally it’s the men who go out looking for women anyway, not the other way around.

Now, as to whether foreign women would see these American men as suitable mates is another question entirely. That depends on other things that follow the initial pursuit.

They really aren’t, they know what you’re looking for when you come knocking and they might as well get that at home where they can stay near their families.

And the opinion you have of how American women are viewed by foreigners doesn’t have anything to back it up, which doesn’t surprise me, given it’s a perspective I’ve never experienced in years lived abroad.

So really, you waste MY time in substituting anecdote for experience.

First, as an aside, it’s useless to compare each other’s experiences on this issue. They are too different from one another, and comparing them will only serve to waste time (which is a motive I don’t put past you anyway).

But more to the point, you misunderstand what’s been going on here – there was never really any debate between us in the first place. And I wasn’t particularly trying to convince you of anything at all.

Whether you agree or not with what I’ve been saying is of no importance to me – it’s what men think that’s important. It is their views that matter, because what they think will ultimately influence their decisions and actions.

08-27-2006 11:25 PM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Pelican
Regular Contributor
Pelican

Pelican wrote:
But Pete, I’m clearly in a better position to judge the quality of American women than you,

No, actually I don’t think you are, and that’s a very fatuous claim you make. You have no particular special powers of observation. And making sound judgments about the quality of American women doesn’t require any such powers either.

You were speaking comparatively, Pete, about how women are viewed by both men and women abroad. And in that case, I am more equipped to report accurately. Much as if I said to you “England is taken over by foxhunting twenty days out of each month, you can barely move for the dogs”, you might be able to say “No it isn’t, I’ve been there and that’s not true”.

especially in relation to foreign women, given I’ve been living among them for years.

And I couldn’t care less. American women still are of poor quality, and generally unfit wives or companions for men.

Again, you’re welcome to your opinion, but it’s certainly not one widely shared abroad.

Whether you agree or not with what I’ve been saying is of no importance to me – it’s what men think that’s important. It is their views that matter, because what they think will ultimately influence their decisions and actions.

And sadly, yet again we disagree. Because here’s an interesting thing: I would be completely willing to stay at home and raise kids. I would freelance while doing it, and luckily have structured my life so that I always have work opportunities that allow me to work remotely. I’ve experience both teaching and caring for children of all ages, and know I’m a capable guardian.

But despite all this, despite the fact that I’m one of those women who really is happy to compromise in a way that results in me being the main childcarer, I would never marry a man with the sort of expectations you have for a wife. There are plenty of other men who don’t believe it’s my duty to tend and cook and clean, but who would see my choice as a logical choice made for the good of my family. And if his career tanks, as careers these days tend to do? He knows that I am ready to fend for our family outside of the home, both intelligent enough to do it and with a CV to back that up.

Any man who believes that only the thoughts of men count is going to find himself more and more at odds with the world, where the women they desire just aren’t putting up with that sort of rigidity when there are much more even-handed men on offer. You all talk about the crapshoot of getting married and perhaps losing some of your assets in a divorce , but that’s exactly why women stay in the workforce, even when they spend much of their time at home with kids — money is power, and it’s unhealthy to have all the power in one spouse’s hand if things go to pot. Just as it’s career suicide for a man to drop out of the workforce for a decade, it’s career suicide for a woman to do the same thing. I’ve seen the way the world’s moving outside of the US — you know, countries where a month’s holiday per year is a minimum stipend, where 70 hour weeks are discouraged, where both parents get plenty of parental leave and where flexible work conditions are being tested in increasing numbers.

Women aren’t going back to the kitchen. The workforce is responding by beginning to shape itself in a way that provides BOTH sexes a better work-life balance, and that’s win-win as far as I’m concerned.

Message Edited by Pelican on 08-28-2006 09:06 AM

08-28-2006 08:46 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
khankrumthebulg
Regular Contributor
khankrumthebulg
Warren Farrell in his book “Women Can’t Hear What Men Don’t Say” writes about Facts, stats, and realities of Mens lives. He was a reviewed Author when he was a Equity Feminist and got lots of Interviews. When he wrote the primer for the Mens Rights Movement, “The Myth Of Male Power” he was shunned. His books were not even reviewed by the NY Times let alone recommended. He had Speaking Engagements cancelled by Feminists.

Feminists are angry that Men are pushing back and hard. Women are angry that Men are refusing to Marry them and increasing numbers are going offshore to Foreign Non Feminized countries. The Divorce rate with Foreign Women is 20%.

I contend that it is not our Women who are the problem. But it is the culture, Legal Environment, and Feminism that has destroyed the benefits of Marriage for Men. Feminists as early as the 1960s declared their intention was to destroy Marriage. They have achieved their goal.

Ladies this is what you are defending. How is that working for you???

08-28-2006 11:31 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Pete
Regular Contributor
Pete

Pelican wrote:
You were speaking comparatively, Pete, about how women are
{rest snipped}

You persist in wasting time and space because you are unwilling to acknowledge a basic, but ugly, truth: American women as a whole today – career or no career – are unappealing people to men, and generally make poor marriage prospects.

I say again: you have not disputed or challenged the claim that men are better off avoiding you American women and looking elsewhere for foreign, non-westernized women.

And neither have you disputed or challenged the claim that men lose nothing in doing so.

I think this earlier post is pertinent, and I repeat it here:

…and none of this has any relevance whatsoever to anything.

In fact, whatever you say can have no relevance as long as what has been said of American women remains undisputed and unrefuted.

And the fact is, American women offer nothing to men that can’t be obtained from a foreign, non-westernized, non-career, non-feminist woman.

Moreover, American women like you can easily be shunned and discarded by the wayside without any consequences whatsoever to men. Nothing has been demonstrated to prove or show otherwise.

That’s really it. All else is bull$*!t.

Message Edited by Pete on 08-28-2006 11:57 AM

08-28-2006 11:47 AM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Pelican
Regular Contributor
Pelican

I say again: you have not disputed or challenged the claim that men are better off avoiding you American women and looking elsewhere for foreign, non-westernized women.

And neither have you disputed or challenged the claim that men lose nothing in doing so.

You want dispute? Here you go:

You propose finding a non-western woman and bringing her to the States. Part of the intent here is to find someone culturally isolated, so she’s going to be experiencing culture shock. If you’ve found her where I think you’ve found her, she’s also leaving behind a huge and supportive family base who actually formed the foundation of her stay-at-home existence. She won’t be able to go to work, so she will have a very difficult time meeting other people. Even when she does, the language barrier may still prove difficult. She very well may face discrimination and prejudice from the locals in your town. So now you’ve found your stay-at-home wife. Congratulations. She’s isolated, she’s lost her support network, she’s culturally adrift, and of course she’s not going to leave you — the only thing worse than being treated like an exotic pet by your husband is to then leave and have to navigate completely alien situations all on your own.

As Noer’s article made clear, when women have he resources to leave an unhappy marriage and the ability to support themselves doing so, they do in far greater numbers than those who can’t financially hack it. What on earth makes you think that these women you’ve picked up in a third-world backwater are staying in marriages because they’re just so deliriously happy? They have no career prospects, no work experience at all in the US, no family to take them in, and very possibly don’t know the system well enough to know what they can and cannot do. What a deck to be stacked against a Thai bride who arrived only to fall into an unchecked depression. Worse yet for you if you actually fall on hard times and need her to start bringing in cash; she’ll be virtually unemployable aside from minimum-wage jobs.

Some foreign brides are happy, I’m sure. But it’s bizarre to think that you’re in for a happier homelife just because you’ve found an exotic pet and caged it.

08-28-2006 04:32 PM

Re: Fire That Pig!
PANDORASBOX123
Regular Contributor
PANDORASBOX123

The Divorce rate with Foreign Women is 20%.

In third world countries most of the laws pertaining to a women wanting to leave their husbands, the men have a legal right to kill their wives or beat them.  He can abandon them at will.

In India, Pakistan, and Africa the woman’s clitorus is cut off.  Therefore, the natural sexual desire has been deminished. (I wonder why these males feel they need to do this and even convince the women that it is God’s way….) Maybe that is the reason why it is 20 percent.   If the man’s **bleep** was cut off, his sexual desire would be deminished also.  He would stay with the woman because he knows that no other woman would want him.  Just a thought…………….

08-28-2006 09:13 PM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Pelican
Regular Contributor
Pelican
Pandora, we should probably leave female genital mutilation out of this conversation. It’d certainly a bad thing, but not germane to the discussion and is actually going to completely derail it. FGM is desired by many sub-Saharan men, but it’s been difficult to stop because the procedure is not actually mandated by the men — it’s being continued by the older women in the villages (and some of the girls themselves) because it’s considered a rite of passage and a beautifying technique. Just think of how insistent preteens are for pierced ears in western culture. It’s like that, but obviously with pretty horrific repercussions.

Anyhow. FGM is really deeply out of place in this discussion, as it’s a sub-Saharan cultural tradition and deeply unlikely to have been perfomed on any of the women the guys on this board are talking about marrying.

08-28-2006 09:27 PM

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Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – Fire That Pig!

Re: Fire That Pig!
PANDORASBOX123
Regular Contributor
PANDORASBOX123

Well Pelican—The person I was speaking to about femal mutilation was glorifying women abroad.  They have this fantasy about these women over there when most of them live in horrid conditons forced on them by their male populous..

I do respect your views, but I see nothing wrong with it.  Even if the women do think it is a beautiful thing to mutilate their clitorus, it just makes me wonder who the original instigator of this mutilation was.  Most likely a…..male……..

08-28-2006 09:42 PM

Re: Fire That Pig!
Pete
Regular Contributor
Pete

Pelican wrote:

I say again: you have not disputed or challenged the claim that men are better off avoiding you American women and looking elsewhere for foreign, non-westernized women.

And neither have you disputed or challenged the claim that men lose nothing in doing so.

You want dispute? Here you go:

You propose finding a non-western woman and bringing her to the States. Part of the intent here is to
{snip}

And you still haven’t shown that men are better off with you American women than they would be looking elsewhere for foreign, non-westernized women for marriage. Because you can’t. All you’ve done here is give away your desperation to prove that American women are worth anything to men.

The reality is that there is simply no compelling reason for a man to marry American women. There is no benefit or advantage in doing so. Only disproportionate risks and liabilities. Face it, you are neither essential nor appealing enough for American men to bother marrying. Not when men have numerous options that basically render you American women redundant and disposable.

Message Edited by Pete on 08-30-2006 11:18 AM

08-29-2006 04:39 PM

Re: Fire That Pig!
khankrumthebulg
Regular Contributor
khankrumthebulg
I personally know of several long term Marriages to American Men with Foreign Wives over two decades in duration. And have talked to both the Men and Women. They are both happy. A Family Counselor I talked to recently told me there are two Words she uses a lot with her clients. Reasonable and Realistic. In truth that is the issue here. The Chip On The Shoulder that US Women today have. The Entitlement or Princess Syndrome. Ladies if you don’t like the Advice here fine. Go find your Single Rich, Prince Charming oh wait he’s already Married or a Serial Pick Up Artist, or Professional Athlete paying Adult Support to one of the Women who he spawned an Annuity with!!

I know of several decent, educated, and reasonable Men with Families. All were Divorced by Women with Unreasonable and unrealistic expectations. Men are wising up and saying we have choices and options too. That the FemNags are trying to shut off access via the Web to Marriage to Foreign Women tells the real story. They see what is happening. Women are actually embracing “Sex In The City” and “Desperate Housewives” as real models. Both fantasy Creations of Gay male writers. Based upon Gay Male Sex. How realistic is that???

We are seeing an all out attack on Masculinity in our culture. Superman is now a Deadbeat Dad. James Bond is now a Metrosexual who is incompetent with out his Female Agent Assistant. Gay Males are made preferable to us Knuckle Draggers who are Straight Males. Sorry Ladies I have lived overseas. And most Foreign Women are more realistic. And value American Men where American Women no longer value us.

08-29-2006 05:40 PM

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