I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!


Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!

I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
TxJules
Visitor
TxJules

I am a 26 year old woman with a college degree and could not agree more with this article.  Women need to wake up and realize that they cannot have it all, nobody can!  I wish I could find a man who appreciates my “old fashioned” values.
Yes I went to college and got a degree but I do not have a career and do not desire one.  I want nothing more than to be married and have a family.  My problem is that men of my generation do not find this attractive.
Women who think they can work 40 plus hours a week, be a full time mom, and full time wife are insane!  It is too much and one of those three will be neglected most often your husband – reason why the divorce rate is over 60%, think???!!!
Women who want a career should not have children and get married.  Your marriage will most likely fail and why have kids to turn them over to some stranger at a day-care facility to raise them!
Women who think they can have it all make me sick.  Women need to realize what is most important in life and if that is a career then do yourself a favor don’t get married and don’t have children.
You can’t change men – women should know this by now!  I am in no way saying that women should be door mats, they deserve as much respect if not more for staying at home with their children and being good wives.  There is not shame in that, it should be commended rather than frowned upon by all of the “career women”.

08-26-2006 04:58 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Termi0n
Regular Contributor
Termi0n

Well said.

Women want fried ice. -Arab Proverb

08-26-2006 04:59 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
sunji
Contributor
sunji

Question – when you’re raising your kids, what are you going to do if your husband loses his job or his ability to work, or if you get divorced or widowed?

08-26-2006 05:05 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Marta2003
Regular Contributor
Marta2003

TxJules wrote:
I am a 26 year old woman with a college degree and could not agree more with this article.  Women need to wake up and realize that they cannot have it all, nobody can!
Apparently men can, especially if they find a dolt like you.  Admit it: your future husband will have a career and a tranquil, clean home with children.

Sounds like “all” to me.

My problem is that men of my generation do not find this attractive.
Thank god for that.  Those men are relationship opportunities for those non-doltish, non-dull, independent women among us.

Women who think they can work 40 plus hours a week, be a full time mom, and full time wife are insane!  It is too much and one of those three will be neglected most often your husband – reason why the divorce rate is over 60%, think???!!!
It sounds like you’re sayiing the reason the divorce rate is over 60% is because men want “it all,” but aren’t getting it.  I agree.  I also agree that it is unreasonable to want “it all.”  I’d be satisfied with going halfsies.

08-26-2006 05:12 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Termi0n
Regular Contributor
Termi0n

Marta2003 wrote:

TxJules wrote:
I am a 26 year old woman with a college degree and could not agree more with this article.  Women need to wake up and realize that they cannot have it all, nobody can!
Apparently men can, especially if they find a dolt like you.  Admit it: your future husband will have a career and a tranquil, clean home with children.

Sounds like “all” to me.

They both get that, Marta.

Women want fried ice. -Arab Proverb

08-26-2006 05:16 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Marta2003
Regular Contributor
Marta2003

Termi0n wrote:
They both get that, Marta.
The SAHM gets a career?  Color me confused.  <rollseyes>

08-26-2006 05:18 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Termi0n
Regular Contributor
Termi0n

Marta2003 wrote:

Termi0n wrote:
They both get that, Marta.
The SAHM gets a career?  Color me confused.  <rollseyes>

No. But they both have the children and a tranquil home. Besides she didnt want a career in the first place. You’re calling her a dolt for that and making an ass out of yourself.

Women want fried ice. -Arab Proverb

08-26-2006 05:22 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Marta2003
Regular Contributor
Marta2003

Termi0n wrote:
No. But they both have the children and a tranquil home. Besides she didnt want a career in the first place. You’re calling her a dolt for that and making an ass out of yourself.

Actually, I’m calling her a dolt for claiming that no one can have it all, when clearly, she plans on making it so that someone (else) can.

Get your facts straight before you tussle with me.  I’m smarter than you are.

08-26-2006 05:25 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Romulus
Regular Contributor
Romulus
[quote]Question – when you’re raising your kids, what are you going to do if your husband loses his job or his ability to work, or if you get divorced or widowed?[/quote]

If that’s your only argument to a woman not purusing a career, its a very weak one. If you’re smart you would have investments and savings to fall back on in the case of unemployment, etc. Even if one didnt have such things, they could still get out and work. People in even worse situations have gone on to become leaders of industry, nobel prize winners, etc. It will be hard, but not impossible.

Message Edited by Romulus on 08-26-2006 05:28 PM

08-26-2006 05:26 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Termi0n
Regular Contributor
Termi0n

Marta2003 wrote:

Termi0n wrote:
No. But they both have the children and a tranquil home. Besides she didnt want a career in the first place. You’re calling her a dolt for that and making an ass out of yourself.

Actually, I’m calling her a dolt for claiming that no one can have it all, when clearly, she plans on making it so that someone (else) can.

Get your facts straight before you tussle with me.  I’m smarter than you are.

Ya she loves her husband. This is why she’d make a better wife than any of you career broads.

And HAHAHAHA

Women want fried ice. -Arab Proverb

08-26-2006 05:28 PM

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Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Marta2003
Regular Contributor
Marta2003

Oops.  My bad.

Message Edited by Marta2003 on 08-26-2006 05:31 PM

08-26-2006 05:29 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Termi0n
Regular Contributor
Termi0n

Hey guys if Marta says she’s right than she must be right.

Women want fried ice. -Arab Proverb

08-26-2006 05:31 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Marta2003
Regular Contributor
Marta2003

Termi0n wrote:
Ya she loves her husband. This is why she’d make a better wife than any of you career broads.
Wait.  She loves her husband, and it’s evidenced by her not wanting “it all?”  Does that mean that her husband doesn’t love her?  Does that mean that you, Termi0n, will not love your future wife?  Because you want “it all?”

Forgive me for thinking you’re full of **bleep**.  Oh yeah, and don’t know the first thing about love.

Message Edited by Marta2003 on 08-26-2006 05:33 PM

08-26-2006 05:33 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Marta2003
Regular Contributor
Marta2003

Termi0n wrote:
Hey guys if Marta says she’s right than she must be right.

Hey, you’re always free to prove me wrong.

Good luck with that.

08-26-2006 05:34 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
sunji
Contributor
sunji

Romulus:

If you’re smart you would have investments and savings to fall back on in the case of unemployment, etc.  Even if one didnt have such things, they could still get out and work.

Umm, thank you, that was my point. She’d have to work. She couldn’t be a SAHM anymore.

08-26-2006 05:38 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Epiphany
Visitor
Epiphany
I’m a SAHM- but this was not always the case. I worked hard to be home with my children! And I’ll tell you this- I save more money being at home because I’ve learned to be resorceful instead of spending to the last dime. I commend you for realizing while you’re young that “have it all” is really a lie. Because honestly- who raises the children for carreer women? Someone else- daycares and such– so just something that simple is missing. Most women who think they can have it all will not let their house slide because they have to keep up their image, nor will the children (dare I say: children are the accessories of the martyred super-mom image) be put on the back burner. But they figure likely a man can care for himself…which leads to the divorces.

08-26-2006 05:46 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Termi0n
Regular Contributor
Termi0n

Marta2003 wrote:

Termi0n wrote:
Ya she loves her husband. This is why she’d make a better wife than any of you career broads.
Wait.  She loves her husband, and it’s evidenced by her not wanting “it all?”  Does that mean that her husband doesn’t love her?  Does that mean that you, Termi0n, will not love your future wife?  Because you want “it all?”

Forgive me for thinking you’re full of **bleep**.  Oh yeah, and don’t know the first thing about love.

Wow. No, you’re way off. But since you’re “smarter than me” you can go and re-attempt to understand what I meant. Or you can assume you’re right and not to a dam thing. Either way is cool with me.

Women want fried ice. -Arab Proverb

08-26-2006 05:47 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Big_Daddy_Cool
Contributor
Big_Daddy_Cool

Marta 2003 – when was the last time you had a meaningful relationship in which the guy did not leave you the next morning? Just curious.

08-26-2006 05:47 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
AnnG
Contributor
AnnG

I’m curious, TxJules.  Who paid for your college education, which you apparently have no intention of using?  If you didn’t want a career, why waste the money?

However, I do wish you luck finding a man who will support you.  If that’s your goal, then go for it.  If you have children (sons OR daughters), I hope you will also encourage them to pursue their goals, even if they are different from the choices you made for yourself.  Raise them well, and be proud of that accomplishment – then let them be themselves.

See, THAT’S what feminism is really all about.  Choices.

08-26-2006 05:48 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Marta2003
Regular Contributor
Marta2003

Termi0n wrote:
Wow. No, you’re way off. But since you’re “smarter than me” you can go and re-attempt to understand what I meant.
Oh, I understood it the first time.  Problem is there’s nothing there.  Nothing.

Give me something to work with and we can have a conversation.  Otherwise, adieu.

08-26-2006 05:49 PM

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Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Termi0n
Regular Contributor
Termi0n

Marta2003 wrote:

Termi0n wrote:
Wow. No, you’re way off. But since you’re “smarter than me” you can go and re-attempt to understand what I meant.
Oh, I understood it the first time.  Problem is there’s nothing there.  Nothing.

Give me something to work with and we can have a conversation.  Otherwise, adieu.

Adios.

Women want fried ice. -Arab Proverb

08-26-2006 05:50 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Marta2003
Regular Contributor
Marta2003

Big_Daddy_Cool wrote:
Marta 2003 – when was the last time you had a meaningful relationship in which the guy did not leave you the next morning? Just curious.
Yeah, that would right now.  My five year one.  Hmmpf.  You’re trifling.

08-26-2006 05:50 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
sunji
Contributor
sunji

Big_Daddy_Cool wrote:
Marta 2003 – when was the last time you had a meaningful relationship in which the guy did not leave you the next morning? Just curious.

LMAO…talk about grasping at straws!!!

Message Edited by sunji on 08-26-2006 06:25 PM

08-26-2006 05:51 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Big_Daddy_Cool
Contributor
Big_Daddy_Cool

I assume you make all the decisions for this ‘blissful’ relationship of yours.

The reason why I asked is that you are bashing this person for saying what she wants to do – feminism, and every other ‘liberal’ moment for that matter, should never become anything more than a choice. Your blatantly aggressive viewpoint make it seem that only you are right, which defeats the whole purpose of being liberal or progressive in the first place.

TxJules – you will find the right guy…count on it.

08-26-2006 05:54 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Marta2003
Regular Contributor
Marta2003

Epiphany wrote:
I save more money being at home That’s true of you.  If it were true of me, I might stay home myself.  But it isn’t.  My income is sufficiently large enough to warrante my working.  Plus, you’re ignoring some other financial factors (common enough mistake for your average woman), like the Social Security you’re not accumulating, or the hidden costs of not working for years (such as stagnating skills, loss of familiarity with current operating procedures, technology, etc.).  Can’t forget to add those into the equation.

I commend you for realizing while you’re young that “have it all” is really a lie.
It’s apparently only “a lie,” for women like you, who can’t manage to find a guy who actually loves his children so much, he’s willing to shoulder the burden of their day-to-day care.

Message Edited by Marta2003 on 08-26-2006 05:57 PM

Message Edited by Marta2003 on 08-26-2006 06:02 PM

08-26-2006 05:54 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Marta2003
Regular Contributor
Marta2003

Big_Daddy_Cool wrote:
The reason why I asked is that you are bashing this person for saying what she wants to do
WTF is wrong with the men on this board?  Apparently none of them can read.

I castigated her for her unsound logic.  Nothing more, nothing less.

08-26-2006 05:56 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Big_Daddy_Cool
Contributor
Big_Daddy_Cool

How the **bleep** is her logic unsound? The only explanation that keeps on popping from these so-called career women is that the only reason a non-career woman will stay in a relationship is because she does not have the resources to do leave it…

Is this the only **bleep**ing thing that you can think of? What about things like loyalty, sense of responsibility, stability and love?

There is no point in this whole argument because you will not realize this until its too late…

That will be all from me.

08-26-2006 06:05 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Marta2003
Regular Contributor
Marta2003

Big_Daddy_Cool wrote:
How the **bleep** is her logic unsound?
She said that “having it all” is impossible.  This is plainly not the case, as her future husband will, in fact, have it all.   If she had started out by saying that it is impossible for women to have it all, I would have responded only by asking why she thought that was and if she thought that fair.  But that’s not what she said.  She made a declarative statement without qualifiers that is evidently false, as exposed by the life she intends to give her husband.

Just keeping things straight here.  Don’t blame me.

That will be all from me.
I appear to have the power to make the neanderthals shut the heck up.  I’m beaming.

Message Edited by Marta2003 on 08-26-2006 06:27 PM

08-26-2006 06:27 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
jgda
Visitor
jgda
No, you keep confusing the individual with the couple. If combining both their contributions together means that the husband, as an individual, ‘has it all’, then equally the wife, as an individual, ‘has it all’. The net result of the paid-work is the money, which they both have access to, and the net result of the non-paid-work is the family content etc, which they both have access to. So they both ‘have it all’ using this approach, or neither do.

The whole point of the ‘have it all’ approach is, however, aimed at the indiviudal (hence, I suppose, its definite feminist connotation…) having it all, and to hell with everyone else. The original statement was that this is impossible since something has to suffer. If you could suspend your automatic pejorative reaction to SAHMing and look at is as, let’s say, being a CEO of a major IT firm, and then having it all as trying to also be the District Attorney, then maybe you could grasp the idea.

Message Edited by jgda on 08-26-2006 06:48 PM

08-26-2006 06:47 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Marta2003
Regular Contributor
Marta2003

jgda wrote:
No, you keep confusing the individual with the couple. If combining both their contributions together means that the husband, as an individual, ‘has it all’, then equally the wife, as an individual, ‘has it all’. The net result of the paid-work is the money, which they both have access to, and the net result of the non-paid-work is the family content etc, which they both have access to. So they both ‘have it all’ using this approach, or neither do.
That’s not what she said though.  She said that expecting to have a career AND a satisfying marriage and happy, well-raised children is unreasonable.

She should have said she thought it unreasonable for women.  Then she’d be consistent.

The whole point of the ‘have it all’ approach is, however, aimed at the indiviudal (hence, I suppose, its definite feminist connotation…) having it all, and to hell with everyone else. The original statement was that this is impossible since something has to suffer.
Apparently not if you’re a man.  Some woman will pick up the slack so you can “have it all.”

It’s only if you have two X chromosomes that you suddenly have this shortage of support for accomplishing all the fulfilling things in life.  That’s something worth talking about, no?

Message Edited by Marta2003 on 08-26-2006 06:55 PM

Message Edited by Marta2003 on 08-26-2006 06:57 PM

Message Edited by Marta2003 on 08-26-2006 06:57 PM

08-26-2006 06:53 PM

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Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Pelican
Regular Contributor
Pelican
There’s no rule that women must be out-of-home workers, just as there’s no rule that they need to be housewives.

Tx, I honestly do hope you find a man who wants you to stay at home full-time with kids. But I do find it interesting (and have found the same thing myself) that most 20-something men just aren’t interested in a woman who DOESN’T have a career of some sort before they marry.

It makes sense. If you’re looking for a partner rather than a simple support, then you’re looking for someone with the same resourcefulness and ability that you have. The economy and job market is nothing like what it was in the halcyon days men often refer to back in the 50s. A highly-skilled man is at far more risk of being laid off without much protection these days. Ironically, this is making men look at partners much as women used to — how likely is this person to step up and do what it takes if disaster strikes? And not just will, but ability. Education, experience, that sort of thing.

These are contingencies that some young men think about these days, and the young men looking for women in placeholder jobs are just not that numerous. A woman with no career prospects is now seen very much as a man with no career prospects has long been viewed: a liability and a risk.

08-26-2006 07:04 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
jgda
Visitor
jgda

Apparently not if you’re a man. Some woman will pick up the slack so you can “have it all.”

No, if a woman picks up the slack in one area, and a man picks up the slack in the other area, then, as a couple they ‘have it all’ but as individuals neither of them do. You keep shifting the point of reference between the individual and the couple as a matter of convenience for your argument.

08-26-2006 07:14 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Marta2003
Regular Contributor
Marta2003

jgda wrote:
No, if a woman picks up the slack in one area, and a man picks up the slack in the other area,
How is he picking up the slack in any area?  He continues his life much as it was before, except now he has someone else to clean his house, bear his children and cook his meals.

How is that “picking up the slack?”  He has “it all,” but hasn’t had to make any sacrifices in order to get it.

You keep shifting the point of reference between the individual and the couple as a matter of convenience for your argument.
I’m doing no such thing.  You introduced the second point of reference as a distraction.   She argued something that is false.  Get over it.

Message Edited by Marta2003 on 08-26-2006 07:22 PM

08-26-2006 07:21 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
careerwifemom
Visitor
careerwifemom

Or…………..what are you doing when you’re kids are in school full time???  Good idea to keep your mind sharp and still be available for your kids……………..

You also might be surprised to find that many women you may admire have keep their hands and minds in their careers……..

08-26-2006 07:24 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
toadman
Regular Contributor
toadman

How is he picking up the slack in any area?  He continues his life much as it was before, except now he has someone else to clean his house, bear his children and cook his meals.
How is that “picking up the slack?”  He has “it all,” but hasn’t had to make any sacrifices in order to get it.

You’ve had father-daughter issues havent you?

08-26-2006 07:29 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
jgda
Visitor
jgda
No man I know who has got married has continued their life much as it was before. Your problem seems to stem from a complete lack of respect for SAHMing, since one can just as easily be reductive of any occupation, no matter where it appears in a feminist (or any other) heirachy of social importance. If that’s all you can see as being the role involved for the individual woman in the example couple, then discussion is pointless I suppose. And if it was the case, you’d be right. Fortunately, it’s not.

The point of reference problem is certainly not a distraction, and while I introduced a critique of it, you introduced ‘it’. And as your response seems to show, you still don’t get it.

08-26-2006 07:32 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Marta2003
Regular Contributor
Marta2003

toadman wrote:
You’ve had father-daughter issues havent you?
Answer the question, s’il vous plait.

But in response to yours, I have an excellent relationship with my dad.  Always have, always will.

08-26-2006 07:32 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Marta2003
Regular Contributor
Marta2003

jgda wrote:
No man I know who has got married has continued their life much as it was before.
The point is that there is no sacrifice of the fulfillment of paid work.  Stop obfuscating.

Your problem seems to stem from a complete lack of respect for SAHMing,
It’s true I find housework and the day-to-day of rearing children dull.  So do a lot of mothers I know who deeply love their children.  It’s a sacrifice they make, not something they love.  A sacrifice.  The man who continues working makes no such sacrifice.  It may be true that he’ll make other, smaller ones, but not one of that magnitude or severity.

The point of reference problem is certainly not a distraction, and while I introduced a critique of it, you introduced ‘it’.
The opening poster was talking about individual women.  I continued the same.  You’re the one who introduced the idea of couples.  But even that fails on its merits as a response to me.  You still haven’t answered why, if something must suffer, it has to be the woman’s career, as asserted by the opening post?  If you’re agreeing with her, that’s the idea you’re defending.

Message Edited by Marta2003 on 08-26-2006 07:40 PM

08-26-2006 07:39 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Epiphany
Visitor
Epiphany

Marta2003 wrote:

Epiphany wrote:
I save more money being at home

That’s true of you.  If it were true of me, I might stay home myself.  But it isn’t.  My income is sufficiently large enough to warrante my working.  Plus, you’re ignoring some other financial factors (common enough mistake for your average woman), like the Social Security you’re not accumulating, or the hidden costs of not working for years (such as stagnating skills, loss of familiarity with current operating procedures, technology, etc.).  Can’t forget to add those into the equation.

I commend you for realizing while you’re young that “have it all” is really a lie.

It’s apparently only “a lie,” for women like you, who can’t manage to find a guy who actually loves his children so much, he’s willing to shoulder the burden of their day-to-day care.

Message Edited by Marta2003 on 08-26-2006 05:57 PM

Message Edited by Marta2003 on 08-26-2006 06:02 PM

LOL- actually I am more busy now (increasing my skills FOR the workforce)than when in the work force. And now that I am at home I have plenty of time to study whatever I please! And also- my children- who are 10 and 8 and their father- who shoulders ALL of the burden of being a FATHER (as opposed to a mother) who I have been happily MARRIED to for the last 12 years, appreceiate me being at home. It is sad that women cannot see that their worth is not written on some pay check stub- and that being SAHM and wife takes more than anything I learned in college. As someone else said one another thread- “any monkey can work and make someone else rich”– it takes ingenuity and real skills to run a home and make it home.

08-26-2006 07:43 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Marta2003
Regular Contributor
Marta2003

Epiphany wrote:
And now that I am at home I have plenty of time to study whatever I please!
I work 60 hours a week and I still have plenty of time to study whatever I please.  We all have different abilities, I guess.

And also- my children- who are 10 and 8 and their father- who shoulders ALL of the burden of being a FATHER
Can you explain what that is?  Because it looks to me like being a father involves not much more than what men do when they’re single.  Nothing more than what a working mother has to do, and in fact, quite a bit less.

It is sad that women cannot see that their worth is not written on some pay check stub
It is sad that some men cannot do the same.  But the apparently refuse to, and instead cling tightly to their careers, insisting that their women stay home.

– and that being SAHM and wife takes more than anything I learned in college.
I believe that.

As someone else said one another thread- “any monkey can work and make someone else rich”–
How are you not “working and making someone rich?  You are dearie, and you have nothing to show for it but a single person’s good will.

it takes ingenuity and real skills to run a home and make it home.
No, it does not.  I takes hard work, just like anything else.  Except making a home is booring.

Message Edited by Marta2003 on 08-26-2006 07:51 PM

08-26-2006 07:48 PM

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Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
jgda
Visitor
jgda
Obfuscating? Sheesh, it was almost a direct response to your sentence, word for word. Okay, how about the sacrifice of paid occupation? Some of us are lucky enough to be doing something we enjoy (or don’t actively despise) and even fewer of us are doing something that we love for money, but that doesn’t represent the majority of men I know, particulary those of the working class, who are supporting families. It’s a sacrifice they make. They also deeply love their children. I suppose being on a Forbes magazine site a working class perspective might be a little out of place… but somebody has to pick up the trash, or mine the coal…

How you keep slipping into ‘coupling’, as I wrote before, is the position that a man ‘has it all’ because you combine both his own occupation AND the occupation of his wife in the ‘it’.

08-26-2006 07:55 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Marta2003
Regular Contributor
Marta2003

jgda wrote:
Okay, how about the sacrifice of paid occupation? Some of us are lucky enough to be doing something we enjoy (or don’t actively despise) and even fewer of us are doing something that we love for money, but that doesn’t represent the majority of men I know, particulary those of the working class, who are supporting families. It’s a sacrifice they make.
They’re are not really doing anything they didn’t do before they got married.  They may work more, which I agree is a sacrifice, but again, it is nowhere near the sacrifice made by the woman who quits gainful employ to stay at home and support her family.

How you keep slipping into ‘coupling’, as I wrote before, is the position that a man ‘has it all’ because you combine both his own occupation AND the occupation of his wife in the ‘it’.
It is not clear to me what you’re saying here.  Please reword or elaborate.

Message Edited by Marta2003 on 08-26-2006 08:10 PM

Message Edited by Marta2003 on 08-26-2006 08:18 PM

08-26-2006 08:09 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
jgda
Visitor
jgda
Why is that more of a sacrifice? It would depend wholly on the individual woman and her relationship to both occupations – the paid one and the unpaid one. Certainly feminism (generally) has had an effect to make women who choose the latter feel guilty and deride its value compared to, say, being a lawyer or an accountant or something equally boring (am I allowed to say that, or is that accustation only for SAHMs? Either way, all it really reveals is my position toward the study of law and accounts, as opposed to a universal state for either occuptation).

You don’t appear to have a problem since you find the idea of SAHMing so abhorent that you needn’t bother even trying to ‘have it all’: you’re happy without it. Great. The problem is that two full time occupations can’t be done full time (or can’t be done well) by one person. That’s why it’s impossible. A person who is employed outside of the family full time is a part time parent. Once the child becomes a full time student, at least they follow suit and become a part time son or daughter…

I’ve worded the ‘coupling’ slippage a few different ways now. The brick wall is getting bloody.

08-26-2006 08:39 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Marta2003
Regular Contributor
Marta2003

jgda wrote:
Why is that more of a sacrifice?
We are talking about a presumption that the woman will give up paid work after having children.  If she doesn’t want to work anyway, then it’s not more of a sacrifice.  If she does, however, it is far greater a sacrifice.  The opening poster was addressing women who want to work.  I, not unreasonably, assume you are too.  If you aren’t, then you’re comparing apples to oranges.

The problem is that two full time occupations can’t be done full time (or can’t be done well) by one person. That’s why it’s impossible.
There’s no argument about this and never has been.  I disagreed with the opening poster’s suggestion that this is a problem that women have to solve by giving up paid work, that’s all.

I’ve worded the ‘coupling’ slippage a few different ways now. The brick wall is getting bloody.
Nice attempt to get out of defending the indefensible.  What you wrote before did not make sense as written.  I do not believe it was even grammatically correct.  If you don’t want to explain, that’s fine, but don’t pretend it’s my fault that line of discussion’s not going anywhere.

Message Edited by Marta2003 on 08-26-2006 08:50 PM

08-26-2006 08:49 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
jgda
Visitor
jgda
The opening poster was saying that it is impossible for a woman to be both full time Jenny Punchclock and full time mother/wife, and do both well: they need to choose. Such types of choices are rarely between black and white – something the person is uninterested in and something they are interested in – but what they value more. If you value one more and make the choice, then good for you.

Her main problem seems to be with feminized men: she is at least equally accusing them.

I’ll try again then with my other issue (is it just you, or is everyone else out there not getting this?) If you say that a man can ‘have it all’ because he shares in the net results of his own paid work (money and, hopefully, self-satisfaction) AND the unpaid work of his SAHM/W (happy family life), then that is having it all as a couple, not as him as an individual. Just as the SAHM/W shares in the net results of her own unpaid work (happy family life and, necessarily, self satisfaction [since the happy family life probably depends on it]) AND the paid work of her husband (money). Obviously, in this traditional example, that the original poster desired, the husband still must contribute to the ‘happy family life’ as well, but he is part time. The bulk of the responsibility will fall on the full time worker, and she should be respected for that choice and not be made to feel like a second-class citizen by the politically pure.

A good couple does ‘have it all’ – and that’s what the original poster seems to want. It’s only the individual that can’t have it all – either partner.

08-26-2006 09:25 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
singletxwoman
Contributor
singletxwoman
I just wonder who pays your bills now – your parents?

08-26-2006 09:31 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
singletxwoman
Contributor
singletxwoman
You guys are oversimplying things and putting down career women in the meantime. I know plenty of career women with good marriages. I know some stay-at-home moms with bad marriages too. It just depends on the people. Before you go assuming ALL career women neglect their husbands, start looking at the SAHMs who do. I know one who left her husband for another man because she was bored. She also left her kids. She had no job or income, so she lined up the next guy because she was unhappy in her marriage. Her husband adored her and would have done anything for her. So, you see, things happen. SAHMs are not saints either!

08-26-2006 09:36 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
singletxwoman
Contributor
singletxwoman
I agree. I don’t see too many men below 40 looking for a woman with no career aspirations. Think of all the pressure it puts on a man to know that he’s going to be the only breadwinner EVER! Also, who supports these women who don’t want to work before they are married? I assume their parents do, unless they have inherited a trust fund or something. No man that I know of wants to take a woman whose never taken care of herself and marry her. This doesn’t mean that the couple might not decide that it’s best for someone to stay home for a few years while the kids are young. I’m sorry, but it’s just not smart to not have any career aspirations. What if you never get married? I know many attractive women who would love to get married but can’t find a husband!

08-26-2006 09:50 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
jgda
Visitor
jgda
Was it my bill-paying-credibility you were questioning?

Ah, obviously not since I’ve just read your last post…

And I certainly agree with you that no general will ever account for a specific. The use of statistics in op-eds often disturbs me, no matter what side of the political fence they fall upon.

Message Edited by jgda on 08-26-2006 09:54 PM

08-26-2006 09:52 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
singletxwoman
Contributor
singletxwoman
But plenty of women run a household and have good careers. I don’t think it’s fair to say anyone can work and make someone else money. I have seen SAHMs who can barely run their household, much less than do anything else. I have seen some that do an excellent job of running their household too. I have also seen career women who do an excellent job of both. I don’t think anyone should be putting down SAHMs. Why put down career women?

08-26-2006 09:56 PM

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Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Marta2003
Regular Contributor
Marta2003

jgda wrote:
The opening poster was saying that it is impossible for a woman to be both full time Jenny Punchclock and full time mother/wife, and do both well: they need to choose.
This is the same exact thing as saying that childcare is a problem that women have to solve by giving up paid work.  I figured that’s what you believe anyway, so I’m not surprised.  I just don’t know why it took so long for you to admit it.

That said, the presumption that the increased burden that results from childbearing and rearing should be born entirely by the woman is unjust, plain and simple.  It’s indefensible.

Her main problem seems to be with feminized men: she is at least equally accusing them.
There is nothing feminized about a man who accepts responsibility for his choices to have children, instead of dumping the bulk of the work and sacrifice on his wife.

If you say that a man can ‘have it all’ because he shares in the net results of his own paid work (money and, hopefully, self-satisfaction) AND the unpaid work of his SAHM/W (happy family life), then that is having it all as a couple, not as him as an individual.
The wife gets money because he gives it to her.  That is not the same as earning it.  And careers and work are about more than just money:  they’re about a sense of accomplishment, the ability to socialize with one’s peers and be rewarded for work done (with pay) and work done well (with advancement and accolades).  A SAHM obtains the money but gets nothing else.  In fact, one could say she gets the least fulfilling part of the career.  That’s no good.

The bulk of the responsibility will fall on the full time worker, and she should be respected for that choice and not be made to feel like a second-class citizen by the politically pure. If she had simply posted that she wanted to arrange her life in a certain fashion, I would not have taken issue with her.  But she did not.  She presumed to tell us career women that we have it all backwards, are being unreasonable, and are crazy to think we can “have it all.”  Of course I’m going to reply to that.  Who wouldn’t?

Message Edited by Marta2003 on 08-26-2006 10:25 PM

Message Edited by Marta2003 on 08-26-2006 10:25 PM

08-26-2006 10:08 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
singletxwoman
Contributor
singletxwoman
I’m questioning the bill paying ability of the original poster. I believe she wasn’t married yet. I’m single, so I’m wondering who is paying her bills until she gets married. I certainly never had the luck of anyone, including a husband, do that for me.

08-26-2006 10:18 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
TxJules
Visitor
TxJules

Let me clarify some things here.  First of all, I own my home, own my car – no payments (MY PARENTS DO NOT SUPPORT ME, as one person suggested).  I fully take care of myself.
I got my degree so I would always have it to fall back on if I needed it.  I currently do work in the field of my degree so I am not wasting it however I would gladly give up my job if I were going to get married and have children.
I am not a dolt or dull person as Marta2003 stated.  I am educated and have many interests and aspirations they just do not involve a paycheck.  My mind is very sharp and I like to learn simply for the purpose of learning and not to raise my income level.
Also to Marta2003 – having a family and happy marriage would be ALL to me.
To SingleTxWoman – no men under 40 wanting to be with a woman who has no aspirations is fine with me.  I prefer older men first of all and second, as I said before, I have plenty of aspirations.
To JGDA – I think we might be soul mates!  You seem to understand what I was saying 100% – God bless you!

08-27-2006 12:59 AM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Pelican
Regular Contributor
Pelican
Please don’t take this in a negative way, because the question has absolutely no bias to it, but:

How on earth have you managed to get through college and buy both a home and car with no payments on any of these things? I’m asking because I’m your age, and though I’m not in debt and have had good jobs and have traded some of my savings for world travel, I cannot really conceive of how I could have managed to buy a home and car and not be in college debt at this age. Do you live in a rural area? Do you have one of those freelance-type jobs, or are something like an actor (I have a friend who’s managed to sock away huge amounts of cash based on brief appearances in films, but is essentially unemployed for months on end).

I really am curious as to how you’ve arrived where you are. (And envious, obviously — congrats!)

08-27-2006 01:31 AM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
singletxwoman
Contributor
singletxwoman
TXJules, I am not saying that there is anything wrong with what you want in life. Everyone is entitled to what makes them happy. If you find someone who is looking for the same thing as you, then great. I think the problem that career women have with some of the things said here is that we are being put down for wanting something in addition to or instead of family and husband only. As long as you are paying your own way and not living off of us working (government aid, etc.), I don’t think anyone has a problem with you. Just as I am sure you and SAHMs are offended if career women say that they have no aspirations, etc., we are offended when we are told that we are wrong to want a career too. We live in an era when we don’t have to choose EITHER a career or a family. If some women want one or the other, then that’s fine. Just don’t put the people down who want both. Comments like, “You shouldn’t have children if you’re going to send them to day care,” etc. are condescending. I believe that is what career women are tired of.

08-27-2006 01:32 AM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Marta2003
Regular Contributor
Marta2003

TxJules wrote:
I am not a dolt or dull person as Marta2003 stated.
You have to agree that your logic was specious.

Also to Marta2003 – having a family and happy marriage would be ALL to me.
No it wouldn’t, not even by your definition (which included a career).  That’s what you yourself said in your original post: that you can’t “have it all” being a full time mom and having a career.  Not my words, but yours.  Please own them.

Look, I don’t care if it makes you happy not to work.  Good for you if you can find a relationship that works and doesn’t end up with you in poverty.  But you cannot say that everyone should do that, or even that anyone else shouldn’t try.

08-27-2006 02:11 AM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
sunji
Contributor
sunji

I got my degree so I would always have it to fall back on if I needed it.

So, you admit you might need to become a career woman.

See, the thing is, some of us are already there. And we’d appreciate it if you didn’t bash us by agreeing with this article.

And good luck finding a decent-paying, degree-requiring  job after being out of the workforce for several years. I’m afraid the working world doesn’t work that way – that cards are already stacked against women as it is.

08-27-2006 08:54 AM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
moneyneversleep
Regular Contributor
moneyneversleep

That is because, you jackass and poor excuse for a human, you can’t have it all.  Strike that, you can, if you wish to raise criminals for children who don’t know you.  But then you don’t have children.

08-27-2006 01:12 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Marta2003
Regular Contributor
Marta2003

moneyneversleep wrote:
That is because, you jackass and poor excuse for a human, you can’t have it all.  Strike that, you can, if you wish to raise criminals for children who don’t know you.  But then you don’t have children.
Stellar show .  . . for a raving lunatic.

08-27-2006 04:58 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
moneyneversleep
Regular Contributor
moneyneversleep

Like I said, fortunately you don’t have children.

08-27-2006 05:25 PM

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Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
Marta2003
Regular Contributor
Marta2003

moneyneversleep wrote:
Like I said, fortunately you don’t have children.
Once again, an amazing, completely substance-free contribution from the lunatic fringe.  Joy.

08-27-2006 07:18 PM

Re: I totally agree with this article and I am a woman!
moneyneversleep
Regular Contributor
moneyneversleep

Thank you for verifying what I already know, that you are childless and in denial.

08-28-2006 10:01 AM

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