Place the blame where it is due…


Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – Place the blame where it is due…

Place the blame where it is due…
bigsigh
Regular Visitor
bigsigh
Just wanted to address a few things I have been thinking about for the last couple days after reading this article.

We all know there are marriages that fail and why they fail:

* People don’t communicate before they get married on expectations and situations that you may face.
* People get married too early.
* People don’t communicate well.
* People are selfish.
* People are stupid.
* People become depressed.
* People give up fighting and trying and working for a good marriage.
* People think marriage is going to be easy.
* People think that love is all you need to make a marriage work.
* People get too involved in thier careers and forget what is really important, family and friends.

But ya know what? MEN DO THIS TOO. Mr. Noer makes it seem like women are the only ones to blame for a marriage failing. The blanket statements made by some people are disturbing. Have you never met a career woman who has got it all together? I have. I know a bunch. And I know a bunch who don’t have it all together. It has nothing to do with wether she has a career or not but has everything to do with how well the couple supports eachother and honestly, how well she can multi-task. But there is no way anyone can make a blanket statement like “don’t marry career women”.

Honestly, a career woman might divorce a guy because she finds out hes a **bleep** after they get married and he refuses to lift a finger to help around the house or raise the kids. But because shes the one who filed for divorce, it’s her fault? His mysogynistic views could place him directly in this type of situation. Marriage is a partnership and anyone who says differently is fooling themselves. It’s 50/50. That means 50/50 chores, 50/50 raising the kids, and 50/50 of trying to work it out and make the marriage good. Women are not here to take care of men and children as thier sole responsibility. I take care of you, you take care of me and we are both happy. How friggin hard is that?!

“When your spouse works outside the home, chances increase they’ll meet someone they like more than you.” Chances are, your marriage wasn’t stable in the first place if this happens.

And let me address the whole, women earning more than men.

I just don’t understand this fear that men have of women. Why, if we are in charge of you or are in a higher position or make more money, does it intimidate you? It not like if I make more money than my husband, that I’m all of a sudden going to grow a **bleep** and hair on my chest and become some manly thing with no heart that doesn’t want to be loved. I’m still going to come home and want those hugs, want to be kissed and loved on and feel safe in my husbands arms. How does how much I make diminish how I treat my husband in our relationship at home? Do you think that I’m going to all of a sudden put you on a spending limit because I don’t want you to spend “my money”? If that’s the way a marriage works, it’s not very stable already so no matter who makes more, there are going to be problems. Once you become married, it becomes “our money”, “our house”, “our car”.

Gah! Sorry for the vent but I really think people have screwed up ideas of what marriage is and that is why we have so many divorces…not because women have careers.

08-26-2006 02:09 AM

Re: Place the blame where it is due…
sha_nnie
Contributor
sha_nnie

Dear Bigsigh, I couldn’t agree with you more. I love your comments. A marriage should be 50/50 or at least some give and take. In marriages where a woman is pretty much expected to do everything like as if she is a ‘slave to man’ is just wrong and I can’t see how that is a “happy marriage”.

08-26-2006 04:20 AM

Re: Place the blame where it is due…
kblogger
Visitor
kblogger

Only by utterly de-valuing a man’s contribution in a marriage can it ever be seen that ‘a woman is doing everything’. Why do women have such a hard time in appreciating a man’s efforts?

08-26-2006 06:49 AM

Re: Place the blame where it is due…
bigsigh
Regular Visitor
bigsigh
How are we devalueing a mans contributions to a marriage by asking that it be an equal partnership?

08-26-2006 02:25 PM

Re: Place the blame where it is due…
Romulus
Regular Contributor
Romulus
Men don’t have a fear of women. They have a fear of committment. Why? b/c they could lose EVERYTHING. How did this come about? before we answer that we need to look at marriage in detail. In all states, a marriage is defined as a contract b/w the husband and wife with the licensing state involved for good measure. What’s a contract? a contract is an agreement b/w two parties which imposes duties and rights on both parties to the contract and a breach of which there is a remedy. For instance, a contract b/w a homeowner and a contractor would mean that the homeowner has a duty to pay and a right to receive improvements to his home as specified in the contract. Conversely, the contractor has a right to payment and a duty to perform the improvements as specified to the contract. If one party fails to perform his duties, the contract is breached and the other party can sue.

Since marriage is a contract, as states define it to be, there should be rights and duties on both parties. These rights were implicit in the pre-feminist age where the husband had a duty to provide financial support for his wife and family and the wife had a duty to keep an orderly house and raise the children. In return, the husband had a right to sex and support and the wife had a right to his assets and support – a glorified prostitution relationship if you will.(Calm down ladies, I didn’t say the wife is forced to have sex, just that he has a right to it.) In the last 40 years, this contract has become one-sided in favor of the woman. Today, a husband has ALL duties and NO rights. Whereas the wife has NO duties and ALL rights. The husband has a duty to support his wife but he has no right to anything anymore – sex, support, etc. Whereas a wife has no duties – housework is demeaning and its trendy now to hire a nanny and maid even in households were the wife stays at home. Yet, she has all rights – to his assets, bank account, support, etc. In the event of divorce, the man has no recourse. By default he will lose most of his assets and be forced to pay alimony and child support even if it causes him financial bankruptcy. Statistics show that 50% of marriages end in divorce, with a whopping 70% of divorces intiated by women. Any sane person would be crazy to enter into a contract like this. THIS is why men aren’t marrying, b/c its a raw deal. For women, its a win-win situation b/c a man still has duties to provide and support and if a divorce happens she will get 1/2 of his assets. However for a man, at worst they lose everything, at best they have no rights and have to live up to a list of outrageous demands by their wives.

The greatest illusory promise feminism sold to women was that they can have it all. A career and a family. This is impossible without major hardships. It is like a boat which is overloaded – eventually it will sink. Men figured this out centuries ago which is why a pre-feminism marriage had the man focusing on the career and the woman focusing on the family. This kept the boat afloat and running smoothly. The author of the article is trying to illustrate that women who focus on their careers rather than the family will overload the boat. And no amount of communication, unselfishness, intelligence, support, etc. wil stop the boat from sinking. There are some marriages that make it but it takes a heavy toll and in many cases one side suffers at the expense of the other. These marriages where both spouses have careers and a family that survive are the exception. Most fail. Men are organisms of efficiency – we don’t buy shoes b/c they look cute with our clothes, or b/c one of our friends has it. We don’t purchase a home or an SUV to compete with our friends. We do things to make our life easier. We avoid career women not b/c we are afraid of them, we are after all the descendants of men who used to hunt sabre tooth tigers and fight in wars, but b/c they will make our lives more complicated and difficult. As it stands today, marriage is a losing proposition for men. So if a man chooses to enter into marriage, he shouldn’t make things even riskier by marrying a woman who puts their career over their family. The author is absolutely correct, avoid marrying a career woman.

08-26-2006 02:46 PM

Re: Place the blame where it is due…
bigsigh
Regular Visitor
bigsigh
Romulus,

I wanted to address a few of your comments.

I think you are correct in stating that marriage is a contract. And just like any other contract that you enter in to, you have to take it seriously because breech of contract can yeild serious consequences. That being said, no one should ever enter into a marriage thinking that if it doesn’t work out, divorce is the easy out. If that is the way you think, then your marriage will be doomed. I’m of the belief that divorce is not an option unless one person is abusive to the other (and yes, women can be abusive to thier husbands) or one person is unfaithful.

Another comment you made was about the rights of a husband and wife. I do not belive that the husband has the right to sex, nor do I believe that the wife has the right to the husbands assets.

Saying that a husband has the “right” to sex puts a wife in a position that is lower on the totem pole. It’s like saying that once a woman gets married, she no longer has control of her own body and what she does with it. Sex should be something that is shared between a loving couple. She should want to make love to her husband and he should in turn, treat that giving of herself and her body with respect. It’s a give and take. If you have the attitude of “come now woman and f^ck me”, you are not respecting your wife and her right to have control over her body.

Now, onto the money issue. In society today, I think it is a lot harder for both adults in a marriage to NOT have a job. The price of everything has gone up. If your husband doesn’t make over $50 grand a year, it’s almost impossible for a wife not to have a job. And yes, there are men who chose to be in professions because they love it, not because fo how much they make. I will speak from personal experience. My husband is a teacher. God knows teachers don’t get paid enough. If and when we decide to have children, we would not be able to support our children on his income alone (and yes, we manage our money well. We save and scrimp and invest and do not spend money on frivolous things.) Therefore, I have a job. Now, granted, if I could stay home and raise our kids when we have them, I would. But my husband would not shirk on his part in helping raise the kids or even doing housework. I hate mowing the lawn and he loves it, whereas he hates doing dishes and I don’t mind so much. But I digress. Never in our entire marriage have I ever felt like I had a right to what he earned. Nor has he ever felt like he had a right to what I earned. It’s a mutal decision to share our assets and make finacial decisions together, as a team. If I ever did stay at home with the kids, I would never demand that he give me money, it would be of his own free will because he loves me. If I am of the attitude “you should give me money because I’m your wife” then I am not respecting him and the hard work that he does. But again, I will go back to the fact that I really believe it is hard in this day and age for both adults not to have a job.

As for the idea of divorce and woman taking her husband to the cleaners. If you want my honest opinion, I would agree with you that women have been given to much power with divorce. However, not all divorces end in the way you have stated they do. All though it’s a minority, there are times when the husband does end up with the kids, or the wife doesn’t recieve allimony (ie. my mother when she got divorced) or it’s the wife who is taken to the cleaners. If there is a good judge who takes both sides into consideration, the divorces ends up fair and equitable. But those are not the divorces you hear about because people don’t complain that thier divorces ended up fair, they only complain when it ends up not fair and that is what is put into our heads. Again, I will say though that if you enter a marriage with the thought that divorce is the easy way out, your marriage is doomed. Women and men who divorce thier spouses for anything less than abuse or infidelity are not taking that contract seriously and are not trying hard enough. They entered marriage not realizing that it take time, effort and hard work to make a marriage successful.

The last issue I wanted to comment about was how you said that if a woman has a career, the “boat” will sink or someone in the relationship will suffer. I have to say that I disagree. I have to tell you that I know of a lot of families who not only survive, but prosper with the husband and wife both having careers. Take for example my best friend’s family that I grew up with. Both mom and dad have doctorates and work full time. They have 5 kids. All the kids have grown up successful, happy and healthy in body and mind. Mom and dad are happy, healthy and still completely in love. And this is only one example of a family that I know. I don’t have enough fingers and toes to count the families I know that are like this. Ya know where I know these families from? Church. Yes, I said it. Church. Now, I’m not going to try to go off on some religious tanget but I will tell you what I notice from observation. Families that go to church together, that keep thier faith as the central aspect and “glue, if you will, are the families that make it. No matter if one or both parents have a career. Now, this is not to say that families that don’t have faith are not going to survive or that families that have faith don’t fail (I don’t like to make blanket statements about a certain grouping because there are ALWAYS exceptions to every rule) but it seems to be working in most cases that I have observed.

Ok now that that tanget is over I wanted to comment on one last statement that you made. “Men are organisms of efficiency – we don’t buy shoes b/c they look cute with our clothes, or b/c one of our friends has it. We don’t purchase a home or an SUV to compete with our friends.” I had to laugh at this because I know plently of men who have to “keep up with the jones'”. I work with a lot of them. I submit to you this idea, don’t stereo-type. As I said before, there are always exceptions to every rule. People are so complex and different that no one person is going to be exactly like another. While this may be for the majority, when you make a blanket statement like that (and like many others that you have made and this author made) someone is always going to be able to show you an exception and prove you wrong.

Ok to my closing statements. As I said before, I don’t believe that marriages fail because a woman decides to have a career. I DO believe that marriages fail because people do not take the contract seriously, do not communicate well and do not work hard enough so they take the easy out. So, Romulus, if you are not willing to work hard in order to make marriage work (as I suspect this is the case considering the comment you posted to my other post “can’t there be both”) then you probably should not get married. Which is not such a bad thing, some people are not ment to get married, just like some people are not ment to have kids. You don’t always have to follow the crowd. But let me tell you, even if you marry a woman who decides not to have a career, you will still have to work hard at it.

08-26-2006 05:21 PM

Re: Place the blame where it is due…
Romulus
Regular Contributor
Romulus

bigsigh wrote:
Romulus,

I wanted to address a few of your comments.

I think you are correct in stating that marriage is a contract. And just like any other contract that you enter in to, you have to take it seriously because breech of contract can yeild serious consequences. That being said, no one should ever enter into a marriage thinking that if it doesn’t work out, divorce is the easy out. If that is the way you think, then your marriage will be doomed. I’m of the belief that divorce is not an option unless one person is abusive to the other (and yes, women can be abusive to thier husbands) or one person is unfaithful.

Another comment you made was about the rights of a husband and wife. I do not belive that the husband has the right to sex, nor do I believe that the wife has the right to the husbands assets.

Saying that a husband has the “right” to sex puts a wife in a position that is lower on the totem pole. It’s like saying that once a woman gets married, she no longer has control of her own body and what she does with it. Sex should be something that is shared between a loving couple. She should want to make love to her husband and he should in turn, treat that giving of herself and her body with respect. It’s a give and take. If you have the attitude of “come now woman and f^ck me”, you are not respecting your wife and her right to have control over her body.

Now, onto the money issue. In society today, I think it is a lot harder for both adults in a marriage to NOT have a job. The price of everything has gone up. If your husband doesn’t make over $50 grand a year, it’s almost impossible for a wife not to have a job. And yes, there are men who chose to be in professions because they love it, not because fo how much they make. I will speak from personal experience. My husband is a teacher. God knows teachers don’t get paid enough. If and when we decide to have children, we would not be able to support our children on his income alone (and yes, we manage our money well. We save and scrimp and invest and do not spend money on frivolous things.) Therefore, I have a job. Now, granted, if I could stay home and raise our kids when we have them, I would. But my husband would not shirk on his part in helping raise the kids or even doing housework. I hate mowing the lawn and he loves it, whereas he hates doing dishes and I don’t mind so much. But I digress. Never in our entire marriage have I ever felt like I had a right to what he earned. Nor has he ever felt like he had a right to what I earned. It’s a mutal decision to share our assets and make finacial decisions together, as a team. If I ever did stay at home with the kids, I would never demand that he give me money, it would be of his own free will because he loves me. If I am of the attitude “you should give me money because I’m your wife” then I am not respecting him and the hard work that he does. But again, I will go back to the fact that I really believe it is hard in this day and age for both adults not to have a job.

As for the idea of divorce and woman taking her husband to the cleaners. If you want my honest opinion, I would agree with you that women have been given to much power with divorce. However, not all divorces end in the way you have stated they do. All though it’s a minority, there are times when the husband does end up with the kids, or the wife doesn’t recieve allimony (ie. my mother when she got divorced) or it’s the wife who is taken to the cleaners. If there is a good judge who takes both sides into consideration, the divorces ends up fair and equitable. But those are not the divorces you hear about because people don’t complain that thier divorces ended up fair, they only complain when it ends up not fair and that is what is put into our heads. Again, I will say though that if you enter a marriage with the thought that divorce is the easy way out, your marriage is doomed. Women and men who divorce thier spouses for anything less than abuse or infidelity are not taking that contract seriously and are not trying hard enough. They entered marriage not realizing that it take time, effort and hard work to make a marriage successful.

The last issue I wanted to comment about was how you said that if a woman has a career, the “boat” will sink or someone in the relationship will suffer. I have to say that I disagree. I have to tell you that I know of a lot of families who not only survive, but prosper with the husband and wife both having careers. Take for example my best friend’s family that I grew up with. Both mom and dad have doctorates and work full time. They have 5 kids. All the kids have grown up successful, happy and healthy in body and mind. Mom and dad are happy, healthy and still completely in love. And this is only one example of a family that I know. I don’t have enough fingers and toes to count the families I know that are like this. Ya know where I know these families from? Church. Yes, I said it. Church. Now, I’m not going to try to go off on some religious tanget but I will tell you what I notice from observation. Families that go to church together, that keep thier faith as the central aspect and “glue, if you will, are the families that make it. No matter if one or both parents have a career. Now, this is not to say that families that don’t have faith are not going to survive or that families that have faith don’t fail (I don’t like to make blanket statements about a certain grouping because there are ALWAYS exceptions to every rule) but it seems to be working in most cases that I have observed.

Ok now that that tanget is over I wanted to comment on one last statement that you made. “Men are organisms of efficiency – we don’t buy shoes b/c they look cute with our clothes, or b/c one of our friends has it. We don’t purchase a home or an SUV to compete with our friends.” I had to laugh at this because I know plently of men who have to “keep up with the jones'”. I work with a lot of them. I submit to you this idea, don’t stereo-type. As I said before, there are always exceptions to every rule. People are so complex and different that no one person is going to be exactly like another. While this may be for the majority, when you make a blanket statement like that (and like many others that you have made and this author made) someone is always going to be able to show you an exception and prove you wrong.

Ok to my closing statements. As I said before, I don’t believe that marriages fail because a woman decides to have a career. I DO believe that marriages fail because people do not take the contract seriously, do not communicate well and do not work hard enough so they take the easy out. So, Romulus, if you are not willing to work hard in order to make marriage work (as I suspect this is the case considering the comment you posted to my other post “can’t there be both”) then you probably should not get married. Which is not such a bad thing, some people are not ment to get married, just like some people are not ment to have kids. You don’t always have to follow the crowd. But let me tell you, even if you marry a woman who decides not to have a career, you will still have to work hard at it.

You made some very interesting points and balanced out my reply well. I do agree with you that I made some broad generalizations and you’re right, there are men out there who are just as infatuated with Prada loafers as women are. Maybe I’ve been dating too many materialistic women. As far as marriage and your examples – I know such partnerships exist and they are out there. But in my experience they are the exception. As far as a marriage where a woman decides to stay at home goes, I agree that it does take a lot of work. My parents followed this model of marriage and both of them sacrificed a lot and worked hard to make things run smoothly. I knew I was going to get heat for that right to sex argument I made. I was trying to illustrate marriage via contract principles, clearly men and women view sex differently. I can understand how that would offend certain people. And you’re right, it would take a lot for me to marry. Frankly, I find my own life better as an independant decision maker and it would be difficult for me to change my mindset into shared decision making. But, I think we can both agree that successful marriages need effort and a sense of duty from both sides to making the marriage work.

08-26-2006 06:20 PM

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