Were we deceived?


Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – Were we deceived?

Were we deceived?
blaineso
Contributor
blaineso
I find it interesting that many of the woman responding negatively to this article seem to feel justified in telling men what they MUST WANT. There’s a spirit of: “How dare you not want me, a career woman. Such men must be defective.”

Never mind the mindless allegiance over the last several decades to the mantra: “Everyone has a right to make up their own minds as to what they want.” Apparently this applies to everyone, except men.

Perhaps this type of reaction is normal after having been sold a bill of goods, ie. about having been deceived by society in general… or maybe feminism in particular.

08-26-2006 12:26 PM

Re: Were we deceived?
jewels
Contributor
jewels

There, there, sweetie.  Here’s a beer, now go sit down and watch the football game.  If you’re a very good boy, I’ll bring you some nachos later.  And if you promise not to stink up the living room with your f.rts you can play with your blow up doll at half time.

08-26-2006 01:18 PM

Re: Were we deceived?
Termi0n
Regular Contributor
Termi0n

jewels wrote:
There, there, sweetie.  Here’s a beer, now go sit down and watch the football game.  If you’re a very good boy, I’ll bring you some nachos later.  And if you promise not to stink up the living room with your f.rts you can play with your blow up doll at half time.

Unbelievable. What a waste of flesh.

Women want fried ice. -Arab Proverb

08-26-2006 01:20 PM

Re: Were we deceived?
jewels
Contributor
jewels

Exactly.  Thank you for proving my point.  At 54, I still haven’t figured out what guys want.  A. Do you want an imbecile stay-at-home non-career woman who doesn’t pull her own financial weight,  has no money of her own, and is dependent on her sweetie for the roof over her head, food in her mouth, and clothes on her back?  Or  B. Do you want a competent intelligent woman who pull her own weight, makes her own way and works hard for a paycheck?  Which is it?

I raised three sons and a daughter on my own after dumping my alcoholic abusive ex-husband.  I know what hard work and responsibility is all about, sometimes working 2 and 3 jobs to make ends meet.  Way back in the early 80’s, it was very hard for a single woman with children even to rent a house on her own.  One landlord looked at me pitifully and said “I’m sorry I can’t rent to you, but how do you expect to pay the rent?”  Duh, I had a job like any guy, but way back before “feminism” occurred, society was blinded by double standards.

08-26-2006 01:38 PM

Re: Were we deceived?
moneyneversleep
Regular Contributor
moneyneversleep

Allow me to clarify some issues for you:

1.  You choose your husband.  Don’t act as if he came to your cave, clubbed you and drug you off you insolent harpy.
2.  It would be interesting to hear what he has to say about you.
3.  it would be even more interesting to see his interaction with the grown children and what they say about you when you are not around.
4.  Don’t blame others for the choices and decisions you made, be accountable, liable and responsible for your own decisions and actions.  Stop blaming everyone else for what your life is and was.
5.  We prefer a woman who is a woman, not a shrill harpy.

08-26-2006 01:42 PM

Re: Were we deceived?
Termi0n
Regular Contributor
Termi0n

jewels wrote:
Exactly.  Thank you for proving my point.  At 54, I still haven’t figured out what guys want.  A. Do you want an imbecile stay-at-home non-career woman who doesn’t pull her own financial weight,  has no money of her own, and is dependent on her sweetie for the roof over her head, food in her mouth, and clothes on her back?  Or  B. Do you want a competent intelligent woman who pull her own weight, makes her own way and works hard for a paycheck?  Which is it?

Like most of the females here you’re too proud to view catagory A in anyway except the most negative way possible and its pathetic. Stay at home mothers are not idiotic losers. They’re good mothers.

Sucks about your alcoholic ex but I wonder why you chose to marry one in the first place.

Women want fried ice. -Arab Proverb

08-26-2006 01:50 PM

Re: Were we deceived?
blaineso
Contributor
blaineso
“At 54, I still haven’t figured out what guys want.”

It’d seem you’ve nailed the formula: We want a woman who ridicules us, treats us with contempt and disrespect, scoffs at thoughtful ideas, and has an overall palpably angry, scornful, aggressive, hostile attitude. That’s what we want.

08-26-2006 02:18 PM

Re: Were we deceived?
toadman
Regular Contributor
toadman

A. Do you want an imbecile stay-at-home non-career woman who doesn’t pull her own financial weight,  has no money of her own, and is dependent on her sweetie for the roof over her head, food in her mouth, and clothes on her back?  Or  B. Do you want a competent intelligent woman who pull her own weight, makes her own way and works hard for a paycheck?  Which is it?
Always wondered what stay-at home moms thinks of sisters like you speaking for all women.

08-26-2006 02:51 PM

Re: Were we deceived?
jewels
Contributor
jewels

Sorry about the “imbecile” comment which probably stems from my own experience, and kicking myself for being an idiot.  One insensitive comment spurs another.

Personal situation with abusive father, result that mother and sisters feared for our lives much of the time,  Mom wasn’t allowed to work or have any money – totally controlled with no way out.  That situation was the result of “lack of feminism”.  Knowing many women who have suffered abuse from their loved one, I wish to remind non-working women of situations which place them in danger.

When you’re 18-yrs old, it’s hard to tell if someone will become an alcoholic 10 years down the road.  BTW, my ex would tell you that everything in his failed life is my fault.  However, I eventually learned in Al-Anon that not everything was my fault.

Note to concerned women:  I was stay-at-home wife for 10 years, which made it very difficult to pick up the pieces and provide for my family without income or career experience. Bottom line, women shouldn’t have children until they are financially capable of supporting them theirself.  Men cannot be forced to pay support – it’s too easy to skip out of state and they have many ways to avoid responsibility.  Life gets messy and there is no cookie-cutter approach. Happiness is found in the courage to play the hand you’re dealt along the way.

08-26-2006 03:34 PM

Re: Were we deceived?
Termi0n
Regular Contributor
Termi0n

jewels wrote:

Sorry about the “imbecile” comment which probably stems from my own experience, and kicking myself for being an idiot.  One insensitive comment spurs another.

Personal situation with abusive father, result that mother and sisters feared for our lives much of the time,  Mom wasn’t allowed to work or have any money – totally controlled with no way out.  That situation was the result of “lack of feminism”.  Knowing many women who have suffered abuse from their loved one, I wish to remind non-working women of situations which place them in danger.

When you’re 18-yrs old, it’s hard to tell if someone will become an alcoholic 10 years down the road.  BTW, my ex would tell you that everything in his failed life is my fault.  However, I eventually learned in Al-Anon that not everything was my fault.

Note to concerned women:  I was stay-at-home wife for 10 years, which made it very difficult to pick up the pieces and provide for my family without income or career experience. Bottom line, women shouldn’t have children until they are financially capable of supporting them theirself.  Men cannot be forced to pay support – it’s too easy to skip out of state and they have many ways to avoid responsibility.  Life gets messy and there is no cookie-cutter approach. Happiness is found in the courage to play the hand you’re dealt along the way.

Your bad situation is no excuse to support a belief system that has caused some much damage to men and women and our society as a whole.

Message Edited by Termi0n on 08-26-2006 03:58 PM

Women want fried ice. -Arab Proverb

08-26-2006 03:56 PM

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Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – Were we deceived?

Re: Were we deceived?
leeraconteur
Regular Contributor
leeraconteur

Perhaps this type of reaction is normal after having been sold a bill of goods, ie. about having been deceived by society in general… or maybe feminism in particular.

Yes, women were deceived.  A few elite women whose husbands were millionaires decided that being rich and taken care of was not enough (talk about ingratitude) and created NOW during coffee clatches in Betty Friedan’s Dakota Co-op (yes, the same Dakota that John Lennon and Yoko lived in) in the early 1960’s.

These women all idealised their husband’s careers, errantly felt that men were ‘oppressing’ them and keeping them from this alleged source of power, happiness and fulfillment.  Well, most men know that even the best career is hard work and stressful at times.  That is why it is called ‘work’, not ‘joy’.  Then these spoiled, delusional women sold the rest of womankind on this false bill of goods of having it all, being a powerful career woman, etc.

All they succeeded in doing was enslaving all women to working outside the home forever, as the influx of all women into the workforce depressed the existing wages of the single earners of the time.  Now, both husband and wife MUST work to afford what one man could provide for in 1963.

Equality was a good idea.

Feminism was always a mistake.

08-26-2006 04:30 PM

Re: Were we deceived?
sunji
Contributor
sunji

leeraconteur:

Now, both husband and wife MUST work to afford what one man could provide for in 1963.

Ummm, that would be because wages haven’t kept up with inflation, you idiot. So much for men being smarter.

08-26-2006 04:51 PM

Re: Were we deceived?
leeraconteur
Regular Contributor
leeraconteur

leeraconteur:

Now, both husband and wife MUST work to afford what one man could provide for in 1963.

Ummm, that would be because wages haven’t kept up with inflation, you idiot. So much for men being smarter.

The reason wages haven’t kept up with inflation is because the workforce effectively doubled in size from 1969-1986, when all the housewives decided to get careers.

This is basic economics.  When the supply of something is increased, in this case the number of available workers able and willing to work 40 hour weeks outside the home during the day, then the price of it drops in the marketplace.  This also increases the price of housing to match two incomes, not one.

More workers, lower pay for all.

An engineering buddy of mine worked in Aerospace in Socal in the late 60’s and early 70’s.  When they found out his wife was working they told him “Well, we don’t need to pay you as much now, as the wife is working.”

Message Edited by leeraconteur on 08-26-2006 05:42 PM

08-26-2006 05:01 PM

Re: Were we deceived?
PolishKnight
Contributor
PolishKnight
Note to concerned women: I was stay-at-home wife for 10 years, which made it very difficult to pick up the pieces and provide for my family without income or career experience. Bottom line, women shouldn’t have children until they are financially capable of supporting them theirself. Men cannot be forced to pay support – it’s too easy to skip out of state and they have many ways to avoid responsibility. Life gets messy and there is no cookie-cutter approach. Happiness is found in the courage to play the hand you’re dealt along the way.
—————————————————————

I seem to recall you saying you dumped him. So why the worry about tracking him over state lines if he didn’t have much to offer?

Even back then, the family courts favored women.

08-26-2006 05:15 PM

Re: Were we deceived?
IWentThere
Contributor
IWentThere

PolishKnight said:

I seem to recall you saying you dumped him. So why the worry about tracking him over state lines if he didn’t have much to offer?

Even back then, the family courts favored women.

Like the lady said: Men cannot be forced to pay support – it’s too easy to skip out of state and they have many ways to avoid responsibility.

Reading comprehension for the win!

What many enlightened males seem to forget *is* the fact that unless many of us women do indeed become working women, our kiddies will starve to death.

Face it boys – aside from your sperm, you are obsolete.  So mop up those tears, and give us ladies a reason to actually want you around.

08-26-2006 08:00 PM

Re: Were we deceived?
jewels
Contributor
jewels

Oh but you’re wrong….the courts did not favor women. With his half of the equity in our home, ex skipped across state lines and started his own company. Though he paid his employees payroll every week, he refused to pay child support. The judge didn’t look very highly on that if that’s what you mean by favoring women. What a mess back then, but now three out of four children are in college and they are incredible, smart, funny, strong, and caring people.

Many women work for survival and quality of life, and working for gratification of career accomplishments is fulfilling.  It has nothing to do with “female empowerment” issues – don’t really understand where that idea comes from.  Personally, the 10 years I stayed at home with small children was the hardest job I ever did.  Going to work every day has always been a joy and I would much rather work past 10pm on a fun project at my job, rather than stuck at home washing dishes and mopping up the same Kool Ade spills like a mindless zombie.  That doesn’t mean I didn’t love my children or didn’t want to be a good Mom.

However, I think today’s young career men and women are very different.  Fewer of them choose to marry, and even fewer want to have children – they have dogs instead.  That’s ok – we’re overpopulated and things needed to change.

08-26-2006 08:05 PM

Re: Were we deceived?
Marta2003
Regular Contributor
Marta2003

leeraconteur wrote:
These women all idealised their husband’s careers, errantly felt that men were ‘oppressing’ them and keeping them from this alleged source of power, happiness and fulfillment.
The law at the time (written and executed largely by men) did in fact oppress women.  Do you know when it became legal for a woman to open a checking account without a male co-signer?  I can tell you this much: it was after 1970.

Well, most men know that even the best career is hard work and stressful at times.  That is why it is called ‘work’, not ‘joy’.
Let’s not forget the rest of the description though.  That work is hard is the very reason it is so fulfilling:  because it challenges you and challenge gives you a sense of accomplishment.  The sense of accomplishment takes the tangible form of a reward (salary) and advancement in the pecking order that is a symbol of the trust and respect of one’s co-workers and superiors.

Homemaking gives you none of this.

Message Edited by Marta2003 on 08-26-2006 08:35 PM

08-26-2006 08:34 PM

Re: Were we deceived?
happywife
Visitor
happywife

Wow, I’ve been married to a wonderful man for 20 years.  We have 4  kids.  I have chosen to stay at home and raise my children.  I am perfectly happy and content…..And now I find out that that is only because I’m stupid and mindless?? (I can’t even get myself to repeat the awful things you called me, Jewel).

Well, that’s OK.  I figure I have the last laugh because I have a happy marriage, and I’m my own boss.  While you “career gals” are toiling at your jobs all day I can garden, have coffee dates with my sisters and mother (also stay at home happy women) play with my 3 year old and take a nap when I’m tired.  I LOVE MY JOB!!  And I love my husband for being such a good provider and my best friend.

And yes, I do have a college education.  It comes in handy when I help the kids with their homework.

I loved the artical.  I have a brother who married one of these career gals and she just dumped him…..Because she “outgrew him”.  They have 3 babies.  He’s heartbroken.   I hope, when he’s ready, he can find a real woman to share his life with.

08-26-2006 10:55 PM

Re: Were we deceived?
Marta2003
Regular Contributor
Marta2003

happywife wrote:
Well, that’s OK.  I figure I have the last laugh because I have a happy marriage, and I’m my own boss.  While you “career gals” are toiling at your jobs all day I can garden, have coffee dates with my sisters and mother (also stay at home happy women) play with my 3 year old and take a nap when I’m tired.
I’m a nurse.  No amount of “coffee dates,” “gardening” or “playing with a 3 year old” can compare to helping people who are ill.

08-26-2006 11:00 PM

Re: Were we deceived?
happywife
Visitor
happywife

Marta;   You have an important job, but so is mine.  I just get so tired of feminists thinking they’re so “evolved”.
And I wouldn’t trade my coffee dates with my dear family, or playtime with my baby for a job I didn’t need…. even though some may think those things are trivial.  Life is too short.

08-26-2006 11:16 PM

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Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – Were we deceived?

Re: Were we deceived?
Marta2003
Regular Contributor
Marta2003

happywife wrote:
And I wouldn’t trade my coffee dates with my dear family, or playtime with my baby for a job I didn’t need…. even though some may think those things are trivial.  Life is too short.
I wouldn’t trade them either, as they are not fungible.  And any man worth his salt would accept his share of the burden of raising children (and the joy, of course) so that I wouldn’t have to trade anything.

If it makes you happy to give up satisfying work for leisure with family, more power to you, but it wouldn’t cut if for me.

08-27-2006 12:10 AM

Re: Were we deceived?
Pelican
Regular Contributor
Pelican
Happywife, you’re happy with your work, and that’s fantastic. Raising four kids is an all-consuming job, and if it suits you and your husband to divide labour that way, that’s wonderful. I have to admit that the “take naps whenever I want to” bit is a little surprising — in all the time I spent as a babysitter, I can never remember feeling able to fall asleep whenever I liked, and I only had two kids to mind. But I don’t begrudge you the ability to stay home with your kids.

But for some women, that is not a content and happy life. Nobody suits all jobs, and what is your ideal life is not another woman’s ideal. Just as you would hopefully never be forced to work when you had an option to stay home with your kids, hopefully other women are not forced to stay home when they’d really be more content pursuing their career. Of course economics and preference come into play, but on a very basic level, you should be encourage to try to achieve the life you and your family want.

Message Edited by Pelican on 08-27-2006 01:04 AM

08-27-2006 01:01 AM

Re: Were we deceived?
Pete
Regular Contributor
Pete

blaineso wrote:
Perhaps this type of reaction is normal after having been sold a bill of goods, ie. about having been deceived by society in general… or maybe feminism in particular.

Of course American women were sold a bill of goods.

But in order to be sold something, they had to be willing to buy.

In any case, the bed has already been made. In time, American women will have to lie in it, whether they like it or not.

08-27-2006 10:28 AM

Re: Were we deceived?
blaineso
Contributor
blaineso
It wasn’t only women who were sold a bill of goods. Men bought the same bill, hook line and sinker. And until recently, we’d been willingly on board.

08-27-2006 11:51 AM

Re: Were we deceived?
blaineso
Contributor
blaineso
If it makes you happy to give up satisfying work for leisure with family, more power to you, but it wouldn’t cut if for me.

Happywife, you’re happy with your work, and that’s fantastic.

To Marta and Pelican,

According to the above quotes you both seem to “give permission” to happywife for her choices. Do you give men (including Michael Noer) the same “permission” to make the same choice?

08-27-2006 12:06 PM

Re: Were we deceived?
Pelican
Regular Contributor
Pelican
Absolutely. If he doesn’t want a wife who works outside the home, then… don’t marry one. There will be women out there who want to be homemakers.

But that’s not what Noer’s article said. His article said, ALL men, don’t marry women who work 35 hours a week, have a uni education, and earn 30k per year. Which is basically any woman out of college. He couched his entire article in a way that indicated it’s the woman’s fault for not adhering to the man’s expectations (which might not have been made clear in the first place), and made no mention of men compromising to make the things they want possible.

So for men who want to work 70 hours outside the home, who want to come back to kids and a clean house and not have to contribute towards that in any way but monetarily, then that’s absolutely fine — look for a woman with the same ambitions. But if you’ve married a woman with a career and then suddenly expect her to wake up one day and say “You know, I’ve never really liked the law — I want to stay home all day with a toddler and an infant and be a homemaker!”, that’s completely unreasonable.

All people going into marriage should be upfront with their ambitions and expectations, and much as women are told “Don’t try to change a man” (because it DOESN’T WORK), men should understand that they’re not going to be able to change the career-driven woman they married into the homemaker ideal they have in their head.

08-27-2006 04:43 PM

Re: Were we deceived?
Marta2003
Regular Contributor
Marta2003

ditto

08-27-2006 05:09 PM

Re: Were we deceived?
PolishKnight
Contributor
PolishKnight
“Face it boys – aside from your sperm, you are obsolete. So mop up those tears, and give us ladies a reason to actually want you around.”

I don’t know if this thread it even being read, but I’ll respond to it anyway:

Indeed, it’s interesting to hear such women argue that men who judge women as being golddiggers are wrong and then turn around and say something like this. A career woman who values money enough to sacrifice 60 hours a week of her life for it is probably not going to want to stick around with a man too long unless he’s busting his hump for at least that period of time too.

So how does this make Mr. Noer wrong again?

Feminism claimed that men were out to exploit women but the reality from women on this forum is that they only care about men, and even children, for what they have to get out of it. With no national daycare programs out, such women will opt to not give up their most loved possession: MONEY and will have fewer kids and darwin will take care of them.

A positive effect of evolution.

08-30-2006 08:54 PM

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