Marrying “Career” Women


Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – Marryin g “Career” Women

Marrying “Career” Women
legacy42
Contributor
legacy42

In response to Elizabeth Corcoran’s “counterpoint” to Michael Noer’s article, which was clearly well researched, let me just steal a line from Dan Ackroyd when he addressed Jane Curtain on SNL a few years back, Liz you ignorant . . .  Ms. Corcoran’s article references no scientific evidence for her conclusions, but rather bases her assertions on her personal experience.  She fails to reveal however, who in her marriage is the primary breadwinner.

Since we are focusing on personal anecdotal evidence let me share my story with you.  I do learn something new every day because I have to.  You see six years ago after practicing law for 10 years in one state I followed my wife to a state I had never been in before so she could pursue what appeared to be a fairly lucrative career opportunity with a dot com.  Because laws and procedures vary from state to state I basically started my career over.  In our new locale I secured a job as an associate with a firm, but because I was new to the jurisdiction my employer required that I accept a $25,000.00 a year pay cut from what I earned in the state we used to live in and despite numerous efforts I have been unable to improve my situation, primarily because where I presently live the number of lawyers is probably two or three times greater than where I used to practice.  Lawyers are subject to the laws of supply and demand too.  Meanwhile, my wife’s dot com imploded within a year of our arrival and despite my desire to return to our former state of residence my wife has refused to return.  She hassecured new employment, but nothing remotely close to the compensation package which drew us away from what I refer to as “home”.  Over the years my wife’s income has gone up, but not dramatically while mine has remained essentially the same.  She has now grown resentful and has started dropping the “d” word.  I would take up a new book, new music or movie (?!?!?) except, when I am not putting in my 45 + hours of work at the firm I am still an associate at, I am home taking care of my three children all under the age of 12.  We do have someone help us watch the kids 15 hours a week when they are not in school (we really can’t afford any more than that and besides I think kids should have a parent around more). I am the primary parent at home and happy to be so, but my wife is not.  The fact is you cannot extrapolate your personal experience to the world.  Mike has cited scientifc studies which are certainly more akin to my personal experience.  Feminism has been a bain to marriage, society and child rearing.  Feminists refuse to acknowledge feminism’s failures and simply seek to shut dissenters up.  I could go on and get nastier, but my career driven wife is not happy and neither am I and I attribute it, at least in part to feminist philosophy.

08-27-2006 12:11 AM

Re: Marryin g “Career” Women
IWentThere
Contributor
IWentThere

How about putting the blame where it belongs – on your wife.

Don’t equate all “career” women with her.  It’s just a sad fact that there are selfish people everywhere, both men and women.

08-27-2006 12:46 AM

Re: Marrying “Career” Women
leeraconteur
Regular Contributor
leeraconteur

How about putting the blame where it belongs – on your wife.

Don’t equate all “career” women with her.  It’s just a sad fact that there are selfish people everywhere, both men and women.

Your argument has a flaw.  Other men are posting similar stories, and the sources and studies back them up.  Those who disagree have no such backup.

08-27-2006 01:15 AM

Re: Marrying “Career” Women
Romulus
Regular Contributor
Romulus
So you’re telling me that you sacrificed your job for your wife, took a pay cut for her, I’m assuming you retook the bar exam in the new state b/c of her, etc. And this resulted in resentment and insinuations of divorce from her towards you. Let me ask you this – does she accept any responsibility for her actions? Has she ever supported you by saying – you know what things suck right now but we’ll make it through? Thank you legacy for posting and reminding me and the rest of us what a raw deal marriage is for men.

08-27-2006 01:21 AM

Re: Marrying “Career” Women
IWentThere
Contributor
IWentThere

Your argument has a flaw.  Other men are posting similar stories, and the sources and studies back them up.  Those who disagree have no such backup.

How about proof?

These other men who are posting similar stories are posting on this forum – a hotbed for misogynistic laddies everywhere!  Of course they are going to blame feminism.  They need a scapegoat, don’t they?  They can’t come to terms with their own failings, or the fact they married a selfish person, so they piss and moan, beating their proverbial chests, rallying against “feminism”.

Have you actually read any of those sources?  The author of this article took many little factoids and twisted them to his own purpose – which can be done for any given topic.  His “proof” can hardly be used.

Therefore, by your logic, you are saying that my argument is flawed because I say the onus is on the individual – not the phantom enemy “feminism”, and that these men have a right to cry because it’s been proven they have been wronged!

Please.  Either you are as obtuse as these whining little momma’s boys or you are joking.

08-27-2006 01:33 AM

Re: Marryin g “Career” Women
singletxwoman
Contributor
singletxwoman
Not all career women are like that. Your wife just sounds unhappy. I am sorry for your personal experience, but don’t conclude all women who make more than $30,000 a year are like her. We’re not.

08-27-2006 01:36 AM

Re: Marryin g “Career” Women
hayfever
Visitor
hayfever
One thing that Noer didn’t float as a possibility–is that women who make money and have careers don’t NEED to stay in relationships that aren’t working. Or if he did mention it, I didn’t see it. Lots of women stay in relationships precisely because they don’t have the means to take care of themselves. And divorce doesn’t supply this–as Noer mentioned, divorce creates a huge drop in worth. It seems like a logical part of this equation that if a woman is unhappy but can’t support herself at least as well as she is supported by her husband, it is tricky to leave. However, if she has her own career, she may choose to leave simply because the relationship is not working. Now the reasons for THAT may run the range…but I’m just talking about another possibility for Noer’s stats.

08-27-2006 01:37 AM

Re: Marrying “Career” Women
singletxwoman
Contributor
singletxwoman
Your argument has a flaw.  Other men are posting similar stories, and the sources and studies back them up.  Those who disagree have no such backup.

That is incorrect. I can think of many personal stories to back up my viewpoint that it is the person who is the problem, not having or not having a career. Let me share a few since you say that we’ve offered no backup to our opinions.

Now, according to the article, career women are more prone to cheat. True, some career women cheat. However, so do stay-at-home wives and mothers. I know of two cases, one that happened to my cousin and one to my friend, both of whom had stay-at-home wives. I’ll tell you the second. While my friend worked to take care of his family, his stay-at-home wife complained that she was bored. She cheated for years, became a drunk, and got pregnant and ran off and left him and the kids. Now, he has to pay her alimony because she doesn’t have a job, despite the fact that she now lives with the man she left him for. My cousin’s wife did something similar and ended up committing suicide years later due to her unhappiness with her life.

A story of my aunt, who was also a stay-at-home wife and mom. Her husband was very verbally abusive and an alcoholic. My cousins hated him. She did not leave him until she found another man because she didn’t have any money. Her kids were always resentful that they had to live with him. But, as she says, she had no options.

Now, a few stories about career women I know. My boss works at home some of the time and takes time off to attend her children’s activities. One of my best friends works all day, and her home is immaculate. She also cooks every night (btw, did I mention that neither of the stay-at-home moms I mentioned above cooked and their homes were always dirty?). Her children, who went to day-care, are very happy teenagers now. She has never cheated on her husband, and loves him dearly.

I could furnish more stories, but that is not necessary. We cannot generalize that working makes you bad and SAHMs are saints.

08-27-2006 01:44 AM

Re: Marrying “Career” Women
leeraconteur
Regular Contributor
leeraconteur

Your argument has a flaw.  Other men are posting similar stories, and the sources and studies back them up.  Those who disagree have no such backup.

How about proof?

Is it necessary for me to walk you through each word, sentence and paragraph to provide proof?  I have read the sources, and they support his thesis without legerdemain or ‘twisted factoids’.  I see no evidence of dishonesty, manipulation, or out of context quoting.

08-27-2006 01:45 AM

Re: Marrying “Career” Women
IWentThere
Contributor
IWentThere

Lee, you have a very bad habit of only reading what you want to read.

WIth that said, the interpretation of his sources is obviously subjective.  You can garner the same ideas from it that the author did, whereas myself, and several others are wondering why you are interpreting things they way you are.

I do see him using legerdemain as a ploy to strngthen his argument – maybe subconsciously – because this is what her truly, albeit sadly, believes.

Oh, and your use of pleonasms will not strengthen your argument.

08-27-2006 01:54 AM

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Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – Marryin g “Career” Women

Re: Marrying “Career” Women
leeraconteur
Regular Contributor
leeraconteur

Lee, you have a very bad habit of only reading what you want to read.

WIth that said, the interpretation of his sources is obviously subjective.  You can garner the same ideas from it that the author did, whereas myself, and several others are wondering why you are interpreting things they way you are.

Perhaps you are interpreting things the way you are because you disagree and only see what you want to see.

I used to be a Feminist, a card carrying Leftist Democrat.  Then I realised that Democrats and Feminists only can have their ideas propagated in an atmosphere of smear and volume.  If the ideas were so good, if Feminism is so great, if being a career woman is so wonderful, why do most of the supporters use smear, ad hominems, insults and a complete lack of any cites at all – not one?  This is exactly the same attitude I had before I examined my own beliefs.  If you are of the opinion that his sources were errantly quoted, then provide rebuttals with cites, but don’t just dismiss it without any justification.

I do see him using legerdemain as a ploy to strengthen his argument – maybe subconsciously – because this is what he truly, albeit sadly, believes.

Oh, and your use of pleonasms will not strengthen your argument.

Your complete and total lack of any proof does not strengthen yours.

Message Edited by leeraconteur on 08-27-2006 02:24 AM

Message Edited by leeraconteur on 08-27-2006 02:26 AM

08-27-2006 02:21 AM

Re: Marryin g “Career” Women
Veronica
Newbie
Veronica

Please note you just cited your personal experience. Mike`s scientific evidence as you put it doesn`t necessarily apply to all situations. A marriage`s fate is not determined by the woman`s career but as to the people who make up the marriage. Lets face it scientfic studies are not always 100%; I mean isn`t science a concotion of mankind??Aren`t humans prone to err??? What counts are the personas involved in the marriage.
You cited your experience which is parallel to Mike`s studies. I however come from a family where my mother has always earned more than my father by over $30000 and my dad still loves my mum; they will celebrate their 30th anniversary in November. My dad currently owns an importing business but due to economic strifes around the world he barely makes an income not to mention the high taxes imposed on his errands while my mom works as a senior executive for the central bank and she keeps earning bonuses. All in all my dad appreciates the fact that he married a lady whose mind and attitude towards life is compatible with his.My mom`s paycheck nor her career has ever been a bone of contention in my parents` marriage.
So marriage`s fate is determined by the personalities involved.
PS: A woman`s pursuit at her career or whatever economic or social joy she may want is not feminism; it is her right asd human being.

08-27-2006 03:46 AM

Re: Marrying “Career” Women
legacy42
Contributor
legacy42

You assume wrong.  I waived into this jurisdiction based on my years of experience from my prior jurisdiction and a reciprocity agreement between the two states, so no I did not have to retake the bar.  In answer to your first question, yes she has grudgingly accepted some responsibility, but blames me for not advancing further since arriving here.  And in answer to your second question, no, she has not said that.  I have wanted to return to my “home” state and was in fact offered a job there 2 years ago paying approximately $30,000.00 more than what I am presently being compensated plus incentives for producing fees in excess of an annual minimum, however at the same time she interviewed and accepted a job here with a higher base salary than what I was offered plus stock options leaving me with the Hobson’s choice of pursuing my career and leaving my family or declining the offer and remaining where I am.  Suffice it to say I will not leave my kids!!  The fact is most career women, like a lot of career men, ruthlessly pursue career advancement at the cost of imposing career limits on their spouse, which is one reason why we have alimony arrangements.   I am sad for my kids to say that it might come to that.  These career women might come to learn the pain of having to pay alimony and child support that so many men are familiar with.

08-27-2006 08:05 AM

Re: Marryin g “Career” Women
legacy42
Contributor
legacy42

IWentThere: Here’s the bottom line in the absence of my wife’s career there is no source of stress and contention.  Now there may have been other sources of stress and contention, but that is speculative and the fact is she now wishes she could be a stay at home mom and wife (and has said as much), but can’t without experiencing a significant change in our standard of living.  Imagine if you will we are in the 1950’s and the primary breadwinning husband who has moved his family around the country aggresively pursuing career advancement comes home one day and says you know honey, I think I want stay home and be a house husaband, you need to get out there and be the primary breadwinner now and, oh yeah, I don’t expect we will experience any change in our standard of living.  Chew on that one!!!  The fact is two careers within the same family rarely, if ever, can thrive, particularly where kids factor in to the matter, because something will suffer and if it is not one of the parent’s career’s its the kids who will suffer.  Feminism is a self social philosophy that fails to consider the effects of it principle beliefs on families and children.  It is time to discredit it and reject it.

08-27-2006 08:19 AM

Re: Marryin g “Career” Women
legacy42
Contributor
legacy42

I am happy your experience was a good one.  I wonder, who was home with you when you were growing up.  And do you live here in the United States or in Europe.  And I was wondering is a person’s right to pursue a career so absolute that they can do so at a cost to their spouse and children?  Is a career so important that parents are removed from the household to the detriment of children?  And if not, which parent’s career should take a back seat so that one parent can be home with the children, because you can’t be at work and taking care of children at the same time.  Those who have their own businesses have a little more flexibility to be taking care of children, even if that includes taking them to the office with them occasionally.  Perhaps if your dad had focused more on his business and less on raising you the business might have been more successful economically speaking.  Don’t get me wrong, I applaud him for keeping his priorities straight and for your mom’s understanding nature.  Your posting proves my point.  One parent’s career will suffer where kids come into the equation.  If your mom was not resentful for not being able to spend more time with you growing up, then she has made a great sacrifice and should also be applauded.  But the fact is in the 1950’s model family these were issues that we did not have to deal with.   I do not believe career pursuit at all costs is a right, but your point is well taken.

08-27-2006 08:36 AM

Re: Marryin g “Career” Women
Pelican
Regular Contributor
Pelican
Legacy, it sounds like you’ve just married an unbending, uncompromising person. You’re understandably upset about all this — I would be too — but this sounds like it’s more down to the person and your pooled expectations. She can’t leave the workforce without your lifestyle changing — would you be comfortably with that change? What were your expectations going into the marriage? It’s unreasonable for her to uproot you and then chide you for not accomodating her, obviously, but there are too many different variables to take into account for anyone on a messageboard to make a snap judgement. Do you know her motives for any of the “unreasonable” things she’s done? Have you talked about all this stuff? And frankly, the entire home city thing sounds very odd. Is there a specific reason she doesn’t want to move back? Are there family members in that city she doesn’t like, or is she closer to family where she is now? In the long run, I’m sorry to say that it just sounds like you married someone who has no idea what she wants. That’s not feminism, though — that’s indecisiveness.

08-27-2006 08:59 AM

Re: Marryin g “Career” Women
legacy42
Contributor
legacy42

I would be comfortable with a lifestyle change, however, our kids I feel would suffer to a certain extent.  Neither of us have family in our present location.  I have family in states neighboring our former state of residence.  My wife actually has family in our former state of residence and in fact her family has urged her to return.  Her articulated reasons for refusing to return are that she has no faith in my abililty to earn in our former state of residence (what I refer to as our “home” state) a sufficient income to maintain our standard of living.  Obviously it is not a good situation and one that in the absence of her career would not have developed.  Two careers cannot thrive where children are factored into the equation, at least not without imposing some suffering on the children.  Women, I think are inherently more nuturing as a general rule and better equipped to take care of children.  Thus in the interest in protecting the most vunerable among us women should assume the “career” of homemaking and child rearing.

08-27-2006 09:18 AM

Re: Marryin g “Career” Women
Pelican
Regular Contributor
Pelican
Legacy, you had me for most of your post, just lost me at the end there.

I’d look closely at whether or not your wife had strife with her family in your former state. She might have a reason for not going back that is linked in with that. Otherwise, I can’t see why she’d be resistant of you trying to get a job in Old State that would enable her to leave her job and stay home with the kids. The location seems to be playing a huge part here — it sticks out like a sore thumb in your history. As for finances, kids are resilient. If it means their mom’s happier being at home and you’re happier having her at home, then bite the bullet and make the economic stepdown.

I don’t, however, think you can make the blanket statement that just because many women feel the urge to nurture, all should be expected to do so. I also don’t think that “in the absence of her career” is a viable way to present what your family life could’ve been, given your wife apparently really liked working or felt it was absolutely necessary to work until quite recently — possibly a reflection of your financial situation.

It’s not an easy fix, obviously, but take a close look at how drastically your kids would be affected by a drop in income compared to a divorce. For that matter, talk to your wife about staying home and freelancing. And again — that Old State thing is setting off all sorts of bells.

08-27-2006 09:41 AM

Re: Marryin g “Career” Women
legacy42
Contributor
legacy42

There is no there there.  Both our parents are deceased.  My wife has a step mother in the old state that she talks to frequently and gets along with quite well.  We visit her as often as we can and she has been very good to our kids.   I have no problem taking a “step down” in standard of living.  My wife has that problem.  She refuses to do it which is a big reason why we are not returning.  Meanwhile I am getting older and my career is languishing.

08-27-2006 09:58 AM

Re: Marryin g “Career” Women
SM777
Regular Contributor
SM777
legacy42, I’m not criticizing.

However, none of these problems you have noted would have occured had you not married to begin with.

08-27-2006 01:33 PM

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Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – Marryin g “Career” Women

Re: Marrying “Career” Women
moneyneversleep
Regular Contributor
moneyneversleep

I have been meaning to inquire, if women are so much more beautiful to you then why not leave your fiancee and be with a woman?  Just curious.

08-27-2006 01:50 PM

Re: Marryin g “Career” Women
legacy42
Contributor
legacy42

Or I could have married a woman with no career ambitions and avoided marrying a “career” woman and avoided all these problems, which I think is the point of Michael Noer’s article and the point of this discussion.

08-27-2006 02:48 PM

Re: Marrying “Career” Women
legacy42
Contributor
legacy42

You are not suggesting I am a whining momma’s boy are you?  I have two older sisters that are card carrying feminists and I drank the Kool-Aid.  I went into this marriage saying I was seeking a co-pilot, not a passenger, but I and our kids got bumped in favor of a career.  I have walked the walk and talked the talk in favor of feminist philosophy only to find myself burned by it and quite frankly my wife feels similarly, because having zealously pursued her career she finds she can’t change lanes without suffering a significant adjustment in our standard of living.  At this point she would like to be a stay at home mom, but she can’t and that has fostered resentment and anger.  While the accommodations I have made to advance her career have not resulted in the success she believed would result, my career has suffered significantly and I am not getting any younger and our kids needs must be met.  I seriously resent any suggestion that I am a whining momma’s boy.  This country needs a social backlash against feminist philosophy and articles like Michael Noer’s hopefully will stir up the pot a bit.

08-27-2006 11:31 PM

Re: Marryin g “Career” Women
legacy42
Contributor
legacy42

However, none of these problems you have noted would have occured had you not married to begin with.

I wouldn’t have my 3 wonderful kids either and they make this situation bearable, but I am doing all I can to make their lives as enjoyable and healthy as possible.  I fear that my wife’s resentment toward me will rub off on them and that would be untenable for me.

10-19-2006 10:30 PM

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