A man responds


Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – A man responds

A man responds
AngryMuppet
Regular Contributor
AngryMuppet
Although I don’t dispute the statistics that the higher the woman’s income, the higher the divorce rate, I have a hard time simply deciding that this indicates that men should avoid marrying career women therefore. Why? Because no one seems to actually explore the REASONS that this statistic is true. There’s plenty of speculation, from the shrill idea that higher-income women can suddenly afford good divorce lawyers, to the idea that higher-income women will accept a more narrow range of acceptable behavior from their partner. But there’s really no additional data to go along with it.

I personally am great friends with three men whose wives make more than they do–in two cases MUCH more. None are now or have ever been divorced. Two have been married for ten years, the other fifteen. My own wife makes more than I do (barely), and we’ve been together for 13 years. They’re all good relationships and we all share chores, child-care, etc. We have plenty of time to do our own “manly” things like watch football and have nights out at least once a week. In short, I have never actually seen any of the problems the Noer-supporters seem to be having.

Reading the responses of the men in particular, I see a lot of pining for “traditional” women, an irrational fear of feminism (characterized by terms like “femnazis”), a few outright false statements (early man in the jungle, early women at camp–not true), and some things that I’d characterize as flat-out misogyny. Now, if these sentiments are representative of the audience Noer hoped to reach, I think the reasons for the higher divorce rate are obvious.

If you don’t respect your partner’s ambition, drive, love of her work, and indeed disrepect her as a femnazi, she’s going to pick up on that. Indeed, if that’s how you think, why should she stay with you at all? I certainly wouldn’t be surprised if she divorced you. She gets to choose how to live her life. If that isn’t compatible with the way you want to live yours, or the way you’d like your family to work, then you have some decisions to make yourself. You’re not entitled to have your family be the way you want it to be. You have to work with your partner on that. Hell, you have to be WILLING to work with your partner on that.

It seems that these guys have a set of expectations about how a woman should behave, and that “career women” won’t meet those expectations. Now, while that might be true, I find it disturbing that a group of supposed “men” aren’t thinking for themselves about what they want from their individual partner and aren’t thinking for themselves about how best to be good husbands and fathers. Instead, they seem to be clinging to these simple role-based ideas which do their thinking for them. I don’t see a lot of accepting personal responsibility from these guys, but I do see a lot of blaming and whining. That’s not how “men” should act. Instead of limiting themselves, they should expand their horizons instead. Now that’s a choice I’d like to see more men make.

08-28-2006 02:58 PM

Re: A man responds
Democles
Regular Contributor
Democles

thats’ why you call yourself a muppet, because you are not a man.

I bet you are a metrosexual too, huh?

08-28-2006 03:02 PM

Re: A man responds
AngryMuppet
Regular Contributor
AngryMuppet
You’re making my point for me. Dude, it doesn’t take any measure of bravery to call names and whine. In my business (law enforcement), folks who behave like that are the first to crack. Why? It’s called “broadcasting your insecurities.” They provide us with an easy and instant hook. Makes my job easier, at least, even if it’s depressing to see it.

08-28-2006 03:05 PM

Re: A man responds
Doc_Savage
Regular Contributor
Doc_Savage

Cool AngryMuppet.

If you want to marry a career woman then go for it.

Judging by the fact that so many of them have complained about the original article I gather that there’s lots of them out there looking for a hubby.

Last thing they wantis men to know that they’ll probably end up in a anti-male divorce court and loose everything in ten years time.

08-28-2006 03:10 PM

Re: A man responds
Democles
Regular Contributor
Democles

Law enforcement? Ha more like parasite of society. That’s why you need to make bogus wars to keep the overtime rolling in, right?

War on drugs, war on terrorism…

Give me a break, I served in Desert Storm.

I stand by my original post, you aren’t a man.

08-28-2006 03:10 PM

I agree with you…
anonymom
Contributor
anonymom

There is a lot of insecurity coming from some of the men on this board.

And I also agree that there is more to marriage than who works or doesn’t work, or who makes what.  Statistics can be misleading, and don’t show the cause, just the effect.

By the way, “Democles” also said my husband wasn’t a man because I work and he stays home with the kids.

08-28-2006 03:11 PM

Re: A man responds
Romulus
Regular Contributor
Romulus
I have seen first hand the result that career women have on marriages as described by Noer’s article. Does this mean it is 100% true? of course not, your post alone disproves this. But for me personally, if I were to get married, it would not be to a career woman. Why? b/c a career woman brings competing priorities to the table which would mean that either one of us would have to compromise for the other (as described by your three friends), or both of us would have to compromise our careers for the marriage. Both of these scenarios will cause feelings of resentment which overtime will surface as unhappiness – a leading cause of divorce. Assuming I were to get married, I’m not looking for a stay of home woman to be submissive, not challenging, not have the balls to call me out on my behavior, etc. I’m looking for a woman who can cooperatte not compete with me and together we can create and raise a family. The best fit for this task is the stay at home woman. The career woman can also accomplish this effort, but she is not the best fit due to her placing the priority of her career over house and family. Obviously, this model isn’t a one size fits all.

Message Edited by Romulus on 08-28-2006 03:13 PM

08-28-2006 03:12 PM

Re: I agree with you…
Doc_Savage
Regular Contributor
Doc_Savage

anonymom wrote:
There is a lot of insecurity coming from some of the men on this board.

Ah lovely, some hypocritical shaming language. What about the insecurities of the women who wanted the original feature taken down?

And I also agree that there is more to marriage than who works or doesn’t work, or who makes what.  Statistics can be misleading, and don’t show the cause, just the effect.

Ah yes, statistics. What feminists have been inventing for years to vilify men with. And whats more men have put up with it…for years and years. Now we speak up and we’re “insecure”.

08-28-2006 03:21 PM

Re: A man responds
AngryMuppet
Regular Contributor
AngryMuppet
See, Romulus gets it. He makes his choice based on what’s important to him, but doesn’t go and insult those who make different choices. Whether we agree with his choice or not, he at least thought about it and was honest with himself. Democles should take note: this is how real men actually behave.

And I just pity Democles. He must feel pretty bad about himself to write what he does.

08-28-2006 03:22 PM

Re: A man responds
DontMarryNoer
Regular Contributor
DontMarryNoer

Judging by the fact that so many of them have complained about the original article I gather that there’s lots of them out there looking for a hubby.

Uh, not quite. The blatant ridiculousness of the article, to the point where you almost feel embarrassed for the guy, is why it drew criticism.

08-28-2006 03:28 PM

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Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – A man responds

Re: A man responds
Democles
Regular Contributor
Democles

Ha, you can pity me all you want, but the fact is that Patriarchy is what makes this society work. Just look at all the women led household in the ghettos where men have been displaced from their obligations.

Men are men, women are women. Yes, dignity and respect for both genders, but each must know his/her place.

08-28-2006 03:31 PM

Re: A man responds
EnglishProf
Contributor
EnglishProf

AngryMuppet writes:
“It seems that these guys have a set of expectations about how a woman should behave, and that “career women” won’t meet those expectations.”

Exactly.  Yet they get upset when women have their own expectations of how the men in their lives should behave.  It goes both ways guys.

08-28-2006 03:31 PM

Re: A man responds
jhussey41
Visitor
jhussey41

Let me help you a bit.  There is wonderful website called http://www.loveandrespect.com which might be interesting to everyone in this debate.  There is even a book out with this title.  It basically says, regardless of income, wealth, class, etc, “women want unconditional love, men want unconditional respect”.  Men want respect more than sex, more than money, more than anything else.  The converse is true for women regarding love.  You want a man to love you, respect him.  Speak well of him, don’t nag him, encourage him.  Getting what you want in life is rarely satisfying.  Giving to others in your life is.   Ladies, demand love and give respect to your husbands.  I have been happily married to a career woman who gave it up to raise our five kids.  Her choice, not mine.  After 22 years of excellent marriage, she still makes me feel like a king, and I make her feel like a queen.  “Happy wife, happy life”.   Remember it.  Don’t sweat your career, when you are dead and gone, no one will give a rats patooty you were ever there.  Your family and God will remember.

08-28-2006 03:33 PM

Re: A man responds
DontMarryNoer
Regular Contributor
DontMarryNoer

Democles wrote:
Ha, you can pity me all you want, but the fact is that Patriarchy is what makes this society work. Just look at all the women led household in the ghettos where men have been displaced from their obligations.

Men are men, women are women. Yes, dignity and respect for both genders, but each must know his/her place.

Your ignorance is stunning, yet hilarious. Do continue saying things of this nature as it does much to prove the points of critics. And make me laugh.

08-28-2006 03:34 PM

Re: A man responds
Termi0n
Regular Contributor
Termi0n

DontMarryNoer wrote:

Judging by the fact that so many of them have complained about the original article I gather that there’s lots of them out there looking for a hubby.

Uh, not quite. The blatant ridiculousness of the article, to the point where you almost feel embarrassed for the guy, is why it drew criticism.

Women and maybe 1 or 2 pussified males are the only ones complaining about the article. Women here seem to think they have authority to decide what is right or wrong for us to think. THAT is blatantly rediculous.

Message Edited by Termi0n on 08-28-2006 03:35 PM

Women want fried ice. -Arab Proverb

08-28-2006 03:35 PM

Re: A man responds
lbaptiste
Visitor
lbaptiste

AngryMuppet,

I appreciate your response.  My husband and I (and many of our friends) have similar marriages.  I really don’t understand why people get so defensive about this kind of thing.

A lot of these responses seem very defensive to me.  I understand that when someone is in a position of power, they fight to keep the status quo.  However, I think what most of the men on this board are missing is that marriage today is growing into a truly collaborative and happy union.  With most of the traditional gender “roles” pushed aside, we can each construct the marriage that works for us, based on our particular strengths.  When you are honestly working together, you can each contribute to the marriage according to your strengths, rather than what society tells you to contribute.  If she likes fixing the cars and mowing the lawn and he likes cooking and cleaning – great!  If he makes some money and she makes more – great – they can both celebrate since they have a larger amount of money to work with.  If they want to put their kids in child care and that works for them – awesome.  If they want someone to stay home with the kids and the husband’s career is less important to him than the woman’s is to her (or perhaps she makes a lot more than he does) and he wants to stay home while she works – cool.  It’s all up to them and not to societal constraints.

08-28-2006 03:41 PM

Re: A man responds
AngryMuppet
Regular Contributor
AngryMuppet

Women here seem to think they have authority to decide what is right or wrong for us to think. THAT is blatantly rediculous.

Really? Because I thought the original Forbes article was telling us how to think. And then, when they were challenged, the “real men” of Forbes pulled the article! (and you would call ME pussified?)

Yet, guys like you are here railing at the feminists who did this great wrong by “censoring” Forbes. Listen up: Forbes pussied out and pulled the article all by themselves. Go blame them for it, since they were the ones who’re responsible.

Yet another guy who doesn’t believe in taking responsibility for himself, but would rather blame it on others. Classy. And whiny.

(Also, let’s please ignore Democles from here on out. I know I will.)

08-28-2006 03:42 PM

Re: A man responds
DontMarryNoer
Regular Contributor
DontMarryNoer

Termi0n wrote:

Women and maybe 1 or 2 pussified males are the only ones complaining about the article. Women here seem to think they have authority to decide what is right or wrong for us to think. THAT is blatantly rediculous.

Message Edited by Termi0n on 08-28-2006 03:35 PM

Actually, I only found this article after reading a hilarious, satiricle response to it. At first I thought Noer’s was a joke, a satire of clueless, lazy men with a sense of entitlment and that the response piece was taking it further. Come to find it was real!

You can wear your tin-foil hat all you want; nothing exempts anybody from criticism. Nobody here has stopped you from thinking anything and Forbes removed it and then posted a counter-point on their own because they couldn’t handle the heat … which, if anybody here had knowledge of distributing statistics and basic sociology, they would have saved themselves embarrassment. Get over yourself.

Message Edited by DontMarryNoer on 08-28-2006 03:44 PM

08-28-2006 03:42 PM

Re: A man responds
Democles
Regular Contributor
Democles

Your ignorance is stunning, yet hilarious. Do continue saying things of this nature as it does much to prove the points of critics. And make me laugh.

Mmm, how so?

I am not the one thinking that raising children is demeaning work, to the contrary, I respect and admire my wife for giving me the opportunity to be a father to our 3 kids.

It is the stupid feminist that want to be treated as men by men while being women.

Ha, laugh all you want, yet you can stomach the hard truth that feminism=the walking dead.

08-28-2006 03:42 PM

Re: A man responds
DontMarryNoer
Regular Contributor
DontMarryNoer

Democles wrote:

Mmm, how so?

I am not the one thinking that raising children is demeaning work, to the contrary, I respect and admire my wife for giving me the opportunity to be a father to our 3 kids.

It is the stupid feminist that want to be treated as men by men while being women.

Ha, laugh all you want, yet you can stomach the hard truth that feminism=the walking dead.

I don’t think raising kids is demeaning work either; nice straw-man argument. I’d hope you respect and admire your wife for going through at least 27 months of everything from unpleasantness to danger instead of making it all about how it effects you. But, again, not surprised you made it about you.

Ahh, name-calling and a false-dichotomy on top of a straw-man! This is too easy.

08-28-2006 03:48 PM

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Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – A man responds

Re: A man responds
onesweetheart
Newbie
onesweetheart

AngryMuppet: It is nice to see an intellegent man who takes his wife seriously, respects her passions and interests, doesn’t feel threatened by her success and is a very family oriented. YOU ARE A REAL MAN! Your wife is a very lucky lady.

Democles: Why do you feel the need to put down a perfectly wonderful person, who obviously has his priorities in order? Do you feel threatened by his success? Maybe you should take a look at yourself and your chauvinist ideas before you open your pig-headed mouth!

Romulus: What?!?! You say you wouldn’t want to marry a career minded women because you would have to compromise and that a stay at home women would require less consessions. For who?!?! Every marriage requires compromise, team-work and understanding. This is not 1955 where what the man says goes and the wife follows along obediently. Though I am glad to see that you know what you want, before you take a leap like that, you should go back and rethink you expectations.

08-28-2006 03:53 PM

Re: A man responds
blaineso
Contributor
blaineso
DontMarryNoer: “Uh, not quite. The blatant ridiculousness of the article, to the point where you almost feel embarrassed for the guy, is why it drew criticism.”

Do you have statistical evidence refuting Noer’s assertions? Or are you simply defining it as ridiculous bec you don’t like what he’s saying?

08-28-2006 03:59 PM

Re: A man responds
Democles
Regular Contributor
Democles

I don’t think raising kids is demeaning work either; nice straw-man argument. I’d hope you respect and admire your wife for going through at least 27 months of everything from unpleasantness to danger instead of making it all about how it effects you. But, again, not surprised you made it about you.

Ahh, name-calling and a false-dichotomy on top of a straw-man! This is too easy

And yet, I didn’t respond with an ostensibly politically correct reply. Oh, and since when are men, women and women, men? False dichotomy my azz.

08-28-2006 04:00 PM

Re: A man responds
Democles
Regular Contributor
Democles

Democles: Why do you feel the need to put down a perfectly wonderful person, who obviously has his priorities in order? Do you feel threatened by his success? Maybe you should take a look at yourself and your chauvinist ideas before you open your pig-headed mouth!

Since those cloaked in self-righteousness purport to make it appear that men are free to shy away from their obligations without consequence.

And that makes me a chauvinist pig? So be it.

08-28-2006 04:09 PM

Re: A man responds
Romulus
Regular Contributor
Romulus
“Romulus: What?!?! You say you wouldn’t want to marry a career minded women because you would have to compromise and that a stay at home women would require less consessions. For who?!?! Every marriage requires compromise, team-work and understanding.”

Go back and reread my post. I didn’t say I would have to compromise – I said either one of us would have to compromise for the other or both of us would have to compromise our careers for the marriage. Either scenario results in feelings of resentment leading to unhappiness – a leading cause of divorce.

“This is not 1955 where what the man says goes and the wife follows along obediently.”

Who said I wanted a woman like that? I EXPLICITLY stated in my post I am NOT looking for a woman who is submissive, won’t challenge me, and doesnt have the balls to stand up to me. I think this comment goes a long way in showing how women today jump to the conclusion that a stay at home woman = submissive slave. I know many stay at home women who are just as goal oriented and independant as career women. Your career doesn’t define your independance, your ability to make your own decisions and choices does.

“you should go back and rethink you expectations.”

Yet another woman on this board (the count is up to 4 now) who can’t accept my decisions and choices and feels the need to tell me what MY expectations should be. Like I said before, only DICTATORS, SLAVE MASTERS, & BULLIES behave this way.

Message Edited by Romulus on 08-28-2006 04:15 PM

08-28-2006 04:12 PM

Re: A man responds
AngryMuppet
Regular Contributor
AngryMuppet
Yeah, Romulus. I think onesweetheart misread you.

08-28-2006 04:18 PM

Re: A man responds
Termi0n
Regular Contributor
Termi0n

AngryMuppet wrote:

Women here seem to think they have authority to decide what is right or wrong for us to think. THAT is blatantly rediculous.

Really? Because I thought the original Forbes article was telling us how to think. And then, when they were challenged, the “real men” of Forbes pulled the article! (and you would call ME pussified?)

Yet, guys like you are here railing at the feminists who did this great wrong by “censoring” Forbes. Listen up: Forbes pussied out and pulled the article all by themselves. Go blame them for it, since they were the ones who’re responsible.

Yet another guy who doesn’t believe in taking responsibility for himself, but would rather blame it on others. Classy. And whiny.

(Also, let’s please ignore Democles from here on out. I know I will.)

We know forbes pussed out. Forbes should have laughed in their face and told them to deal with it. And you’re supporting the feminists, thats why we call you pussified. What man would support an anti-male movement?

Message Edited by Termi0n on 08-28-2006 04:21 PM

Women want fried ice. -Arab Proverb

08-28-2006 04:21 PM

Re: A man responds
DontMarryNoer
Regular Contributor
DontMarryNoer

Democles wrote:
And yet, I didn’t respond with an ostensibly politically correct reply.

Sure doesn’t stop you from responding with talking-points…

Oh, and since when are men, women and women, men? False dichotomy my azz.

Riiight over your head.

08-28-2006 04:26 PM

Re: A man responds
AngryMuppet
Regular Contributor
AngryMuppet

Termi0n wrote:

AngryMuppet wrote:

Women here seem to think they have authority to decide what is right or wrong for us to think. THAT is blatantly rediculous.

Really? Because I thought the original Forbes article was telling us how to think. And then, when they were challenged, the “real men” of Forbes pulled the article! (and you would call ME pussified?)

Yet, guys like you are here railing at the feminists who did this great wrong by “censoring” Forbes. Listen up: Forbes pussied out and pulled the article all by themselves. Go blame them for it, since they were the ones who’re responsible.

Yet another guy who doesn’t believe in taking responsibility for himself, but would rather blame it on others. Classy. And whiny.

(Also, let’s please ignore Democles from here on out. I know I will.)

We know forbes pussed out. Forbes should have laughed in their face and told them to deal with it. And you’re supporting the feminists, thats why we call you pussified. What man would support an anti-male movement?

Message Edited by Termi0n on 08-28-2006 04:21 PM

I guess that’s really the point, isn’t it? I don’t see feminism as “anti-male” and never have. Sure, there have been some anti-male feminists out there (Dworkin, for example), but those ladies are far more extreme than almost all feminists, but of course they’re the ones quoted the most often–by men afraid of feminism, at least. Woman-hating, in particular feminism-hating, is far more mainstream. Feminism never hurt me and has never done me any wrong, and never will do me any wrong. Why should I be scared of something that can’t hurt me? Maybe I just don’t scare easy, I dunno.

Simply put: I don’t trust people who blame everyone else for their problems and don’t accept any responsibility for themselves. People like that truly are “pussified.” But that’s all I see here, among these so-called “men” posting all this crap. It’s all fear, and a lot of lies, and I don’t respect either.

08-28-2006 04:42 PM

Re: A man responds
Doc_Savage
Regular Contributor
Doc_Savage

AngryMuppet wrote:

I guess that’s really the point, isn’t it? I don’t see feminism as “anti-male” and never have. Sure, there have been some anti-male feminists out there (Dworkin, for example), but those ladies are far more extreme than almost all feminists, but of course they’re the ones quoted the most often–by men afraid of feminism, at least. Woman-hating, in particular feminism-hating, is far more mainstream. Feminism never hurt me and has never done me any wrong, and never will do me any wrong. Why should I be scared of something that can’t hurt me? Maybe I just don’t scare easy, I dunno.

Can I just ask you what you think is responsible for the “boy crisis” in American schools at the moment?

Have boys just got dumber in the last few years or what?

08-28-2006 05:08 PM

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Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – A man responds

Re: A man responds
AngryMuppet
Regular Contributor
AngryMuppet

Doc_Savage wrote:

Can I just ask you what you think is responsible for the “boy crisis” in American schools at the moment?

Have boys just got dumber in the last few years or what?

I’ll tell you exactly why there’s a “boy crisis.” It’s because we no longer encourage our boys to be men and take responsibility for their actions. We blame everything else–the system, the feminists, the schools–but we don’t hold them or their parents responsible. And, when their fathers aren’t taking responsibility for themselves either, and are blaming everyone else (the government, the feminists, etc.), we end up being terrible role models. You want to solve the boy crisis? Stand up and be a man. It’s not feminism’s fault. It’s not Title IX’s fault, it’s not the government’s fault. It’s because we’ve stopped expecting our boys to work hard, and instilled a sense of entitlement in them instead.

You want to know the roots of the boy crisis? Look in the mirror. It starts with men.

Message Edited by AngryMuppet on 08-28-2006 05:13 PM

08-28-2006 05:12 PM

Re: A man responds
EnglishProf
Contributor
EnglishProf

As a college professor, I will say that young women really are stepping up to the plate these days and succeeding.  It is the girls who show up to class on time, turn in their homework, pay attention, engage in conversation, do well on tests and papers.  The girls are winning the honors, getting into graduate programs, etc.  We don’t descriminate against boys, but if you don’t do the work, you fail, and boys aren’t doing the work.  It is not the fault of girls that boys are not succeeding.  It is personal choice.  And boys make these choices beginning in the 7th grade.

AngryMuppet is right:  boys need stronger role models to teach them about success.  It is not enough to have a mother enagaged in one’s life–boys need fathers who are home enough to spend time with them.

And, boys need good role models in men who treat women well . . . reading this forum, I’m beginning to see that this is not the norm.

08-28-2006 05:17 PM

Re: A man responds
DontMarryNoer
Regular Contributor
DontMarryNoer

EnglishProf wrote:
As a college professor, I will say that young women really are stepping up to the plate these days and succeeding.  It is the girls who show up to class on time, turn in their homework, pay attention, engage in conversation, do well on tests and papers.  The girls are winning the honors, getting into graduate programs, etc.  We don’t descriminate against boys, but if you don’t do the work, you fail, and boys aren’t doing the work.  It is not the fault of girls that boys are not succeeding.  It is personal choice.  And boys make these choices beginning in the 7th grade.

AngryMuppet is right:  boys need stronger role models to teach them about success.  It is not enough to have a mother enagaged in one’s life–boys need fathers who are home enough to spend time with them.

And, boys need good role models in men who treat women well . . . reading this forum, I’m beginning to see that this is not the norm.

I think it is demonstrative of how/why no problems will be solved, but the “boy crisis” is more like “white boys no longer longer in the lead”. It was blown up to be this big thing that the feminists/Title IX/whomever did but if you actually look at it? Boys are still in the lead when it comes to things like math and, while girls are further in things such as reading, etc., the points for boys in all demos have increased more for them in all categories than for girls since the ’70s. More boys are going to college. It just seems that white boys are no longer in the lead. Were it really due to changes/imagined changes made by feminists, there would not have been the increase. Unless you want to argue the wiley feminists conspired to have them inscrease but not surpass. Or something.

The actual crisis that exists lies with non-white boys and girls where the gap is huge and disturbing but improving. Nevermind this has always been a huge problem. But god forbid white boys don’t be in the lead…

08-28-2006 05:34 PM

Re: A man responds
blaineso
Contributor
blaineso
re: “boy crisis” is more like “white boys no longer longer in the lead”

While it’s been a couple years since I watched it, 60 Minutes (hardly a conservative bastion) did a piece on this topic, and it was far from the crass, insensitive, purposefully demeaning: “white boys no longer longer in the lead”.

Here is a url on this topic from the Atlantic Monthly (don’t know their political slant) online:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200005/war-against-boys

08-28-2006 05:57 PM

Re: A man responds
zacharias
Regular Contributor
zacharias
“60 Minutes (hardly a conservative bastion) did a piece on this topic, and it was far from the crass, insensitive, purposefully demeaning: “white boys no longer longer in the lead”. ”

White boys really aren’t doing all that bad. It is the minority boys who are really being hit. Black women now get about twice as many degrees as black men, and 2/3rds of black children are now born to single mothers with no reversal of either trend in sight.

08-28-2006 06:04 PM

Re: A man responds
Termi0n
Regular Contributor
Termi0n

AngryMuppet wrote:

Doc_Savage wrote:

Can I just ask you what you think is responsible for the “boy crisis” in American schools at the moment?

Have boys just got dumber in the last few years or what?

I’ll tell you exactly why there’s a “boy crisis.” It’s because we no longer encourage our boys to be men and take responsibility for their actions. We blame everything else–the system, the feminists, the schools–but we don’t hold them or their parents responsible. And, when their fathers aren’t taking responsibility for themselves either, and are blaming everyone else (the government, the feminists, etc.), we end up being terrible role models. You want to solve the boy crisis? Stand up and be a man. It’s not feminism’s fault. It’s not Title IX’s fault, it’s not the government’s fault. It’s because we’ve stopped expecting our boys to work hard, and instilled a sense of entitlement in them instead.

You want to know the roots of the boy crisis? Look in the mirror. It starts with men.

Message Edited by AngryMuppet on 08-28-2006 05:13 PM

You’re partially right but what you’re missing is why boys arent being taught to be men anymore. I’ll give you a hint: Feminism.

Women want fried ice. -Arab Proverb

08-28-2006 06:13 PM

Re: A man responds
AngryMuppet
Regular Contributor
AngryMuppet

Termi0n wrote:

You’re partially right but what you’re missing is why boys arent being taught to be men anymore. I’ll give you a hint: Feminism.

That makes no sense. Feminism is stopping us from being good role models to our sons? Feminism is preventing us from teaching personal responsibility? That sounds more like someone trying to blame others for their own failures, and that sets a TERRIBLE example for our boys.

How are men supposed to teach boys strength, courage, and honesty when they exhibit none themselves? Instead we show weakness (not listening to what feminists have to say), cowardice (blaming feminists for our problems instead of looking within ourselves for solutions), and dishonesty (quoting bad statistics and only the most shrill and hateful feminists in order to distort their message). That’s not an example I’d want for my boys.

I tell them: “Take responsibility for yourself. Don’t make justifications or excuses. See the truth in front of you. If you want to live an honorable life, that’s in your hands: live it.”

Maybe you guys are right, and these women are acting like men. But not the way you think. In the face of guys like you loudly telling them to “stay at home, obey your husbands, and crank out children or you’ll be sorry,” they instead live their lives unapologetically and with the courage of their convictions–just like a real man would.

Message Edited by AngryMuppet on 08-28-2006 06:26 PM

08-28-2006 06:25 PM

Re: A man responds
Termi0n
Regular Contributor
Termi0n

“That makes no sense. Feminism is stopping us from being good role models to our sons? Feminism is preventing us from teaching personal responsibility? That sounds more like someone trying to blame others for their own failures, and that sets a TERRIBLE example for our boys.”

No its not stopping those that know better. The problem is not everyone does. Thats why we’re trying to tell them.

“How are men supposed to teach boys strength, courage, and honesty when they exhibit none themselves? Instead we show weakness (not listening to what feminists have to say), cowardice (blaming feminists for our problems instead of looking within ourselves for solutions), and dishonesty (quoting bad statistics and only the most shrill and hateful feminists in order to distort their message). That’s not an example I’d want for my boys.”

We’ve heard what feminists have to say. Its all the same and its bullsh-t. Men and women are not interchangable. They both have their roles. Feminist teachings in schools and unfortunately at home are also causing problems. Quoting false statistics is something feminist have been doing for 40 years. Why are you listening to feminists if thats not the kind of example you want to set?

“I tell them: “Take responsibility for yourself. Don’t make justifications or excuses. See the truth in front of you. If you want to live an honorable life, that’s in your hands: live it.””

Great.

“Maybe you guys are right, and these women are acting like men. But not the way you think. In the face of guys like you loudly telling them to “stay at home, obey your husbands, and crank out children or you’ll be sorry,” they instead live their lives unapologetically and with the courage of their convictions–just like a real man would.”

Great. They can do that. Thats just not the kind of woman we want to marry.

Message Edited by Termi0n on 08-28-2006 07:03 PM

Women want fried ice. -Arab Proverb

08-28-2006 06:52 PM

Re: A man responds
DontMarryNoer
Regular Contributor
DontMarryNoer

blaineso wrote:
re: “boy crisis” is more like “white boys no longer longer in the lead”

While it’s been a couple years since I watched it, 60 Minutes (hardly a conservative bastion) did a piece on this topic, and it was far from the crass, insensitive, purposefully demeaning: “white boys no longer longer in the lead”.

Here is a url on this topic from the Atlantic Monthly (don’t know their political slant) online:

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200005/war-against-boys

That is just about Hoff-Sommers’s book The War Against Boys. I don’t know if you read it, but if not I suggest you do. She is loud as usual about how she thinks things should be but also, as usual, misrepresents her findings and selectively quotes them in order to appease the conservative think tanks that grant her money. She doesn’t make a real argument about it and it has be fully explored. Now I’m not on my own computer, but the best rebuttal I could find currently is here – http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/books/reviews/waragainstboys0703.htm

Again, “Boy Crisis” is a misstatement; boys are doing better than ever in most places and have in fact improved more than have girls acedemically. Here is one I could find that explains it-

http://www.educationsector.org/analysis/analysis_show.htm?doc_id=378705

08-28-2006 06:54 PM

Re: A man responds
AngryMuppet
Regular Contributor
AngryMuppet

Termi0n wrote:

No its not stopping those that know better. The problem is not everyone does. Thats why we’re trying to tell them.

We’ve heard what feminists have to say. Its all the same and its bullsh-t. Men and women are not interchangable. They both have their roles. Feminist teachings in schools and unfortunately at home are also causing problems. Quoting false statistics is something feminist have been doing for 40 years. Why are you listening to feminists if thats not the kind of example you want to set?

“I tell them: “Take responsibility for yourself. Don’t make justifications or excuses. See the truth in front of you. If you want to live an honorable life, that’s in your hands: live it.””

Great.

“Maybe you guys are right, and these women are acting like men. But not the way you think. In the face of guys like you loudly telling them to “stay at home, obey your husbands, and crank out children or you’ll be sorry,” they instead live their lives unapologetically and with the courage of their convictions–just like a real man would.”

Great. They can do that. Thats just not the kind of woman we want to marry.

Message Edited by Termi0n on 08-28-2006 07:03 PM

I don’t think you have heard what feminists have to say. No respectable feminist would ever say that men and women are interchangeable. And listening to feminists doesn’t mean accepting everything they say as truth. But it does mean understanding WHY they’re saying what they’re saying and not dismissing them out-of-hand.

For example, men used to be able to beat their wives with impunity, without threat of prosecution. Now we can all agree that beating a woman is cowardly thing to do and that men who do that are scumbags. But feminists fought to make sure that men were punished for their criminal behavior, and they won. Not because they browbeat men into submission, but because they were right. People need to be held responsible for their actions. Now, that doesn’t mean their statistics were correct (a women beaten every ten seconds sounds pretty unscientific to me), but the treatment of battered spouses by law enforcement was a real problem, and it needed solving. Unfortunately, men weren’t doing anything real to solve it, so women got involved themselves. What’s so bad about that?

And really, what “Feminist” thing is being taught at home and in the schools that’s causing problems? Income equality? “No means no”? Don’t beat on your spouse? Treat everyone with respect? Maternity and paternity leave? Freedom to choose how you want to live? Give me a break. Anyone with a brain can look at that and see that it won’t harm anyone.

What are you guys so afraid of, anyway?

08-28-2006 07:28 PM

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Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – A man responds

Re: A man responds
Democles
Regular Contributor
Democles

What are you guys so afraid of, anyway?

I guess you haven’t being to college huh?

Haven’t you witness all the misandrist rhetoric males are accosted with in academina?

08-28-2006 07:40 PM

Re: A man responds
AngryMuppet
Regular Contributor
AngryMuppet

Democles wrote:

What are you guys so afraid of, anyway?

I guess you haven’t being to college huh?

Haven’t you witness all the misandrist rhetoric males are accosted with in academina?

So THAT’S what this is about. *slaps forehead* Yeah, I even went to pretty liberal schools and saw a lot of this. But hey, I was just a kid then, and so were the girls raising hell. I know my opinions have softened and become a lot more nuanced since then, and I’d imagine the same goes for those female college students back then. I certainly don’t hold any grudges about being inundated with all that PC stuff; I didn’t like it that much, but I don’t carry it around with me today. I listened to what they had to say, thought about it, agreed with some of it, didn’t agree with some of it, and moved on.

But I NEVER thought that what I saw a few girls do in college was representative of feminism writ large, any more than I think that what some frat boys did in college was representative of all men. And I never internalized the critique (which, when you really think about it, mostly burned down to “words matter,” which isn’t a radical idea or anything) and thought that feminists, by nature, were anti-male. That’s not to say that anti-male “feminists” don’t exist, but they definitely aren’t in the mainstream of feminism, I’ll tell you that.

My advice to you, sir, is to “get over it.”

You know, I had to edit to say this: That really scared you? Feminists challenging you in college made you afraid? And you guys would call ME pussified? LMAO. I barely have to think anymore on this message board, you guys are doing such a good job making my point for me.

Message Edited by AngryMuppet on 08-28-2006 07:59 PM

08-28-2006 07:53 PM

Re: A man responds
blaineso
Contributor
blaineso
DontMarryNoer,

I went to the Wash post rebuttal you referenced as well as the other which I just don’t have time to read now. Here is one exerpt from the wash post piece:

“Most studies of sex difference in various forms of behavior show no statistically significant difference.”

The Wash post accuses Sommers of ignoring important scholarly works and debates, but gives no citations or footnotes to back it up. The above quote (among others) gives me serious pause. Do you (DontMarryNoer) seriously believe that there is no (statistically significant) “sex difference in various forms of behavior”?

With this type of thinking prominently presented in the post piece, I have to seriously doubt the conclusions they reached about the topic in general and Sommers in particular.

One indisputable example of how boys were discriminated against by the feminist movement was the “Take your daughters to work” day. That was by definition discrimination against boys. The thought process behind this was interesting, namely girls have been held back for so long that SOMETHING had to be done to get girls caught up (at least that was the argument i heard)? So the solution was to give girls an advantage over boys who had nothing to do with past inequities. That was some warped logic, and is indicative of the probability of other similarly styled programs that were likely implemented (although I have no immediate proof.)

p.s. There was actually a pretty good 60 minutes segment last night 8/27/06 on gay v. straight people. One part showed 2 twin boys, one who was very “girl-like” and the other more typically “boy-like”. The point I would draw is that even though there seem to be many factors entering into the determination of one’s masculinity or femininity, there are UNQUESTIONABLY masculine and feminine forms of behavior which statistically speaking evidence themselves early on in boys and girls respectively. The more feminine boy is cleary not in the statistical norm for boys.

08-28-2006 09:41 PM

Re: A man responds
khankrumthebulg
Regular Contributor
khankrumthebulg
Christina Hoff Sommers Book “The War On Boys” describes the Gender Equity Movement and the fraud that created a “crisis of Education” for Girls in our Schools. Schools are now structured for our Girls. Boys and Girls do equally well in Home Schooling. Funny too that Carroll Gilligan of Brown University has never published her data for her ground breaking work. It has never been peer reviewed.

Two years ago the Seattle Post Intelligencer wrote a story about College Men who refused to consider joining the Military. The story promptly disappeared from their web site. When asked why they had no interest they stated that they had “No desire to defend a Nation that has hated them since they were small boys”. When your Males are openly saying they feel hated you are creating the conditions for social upheaval. Boys are withdrawing from School, Church, Families and relationships. It is part of the “Garbage Generation”.

Feminism has become an insane parody of responsible conduct. With Girls giving Boys oral Sex on School buses as young as 8. Paris Hilton has become an icon and idol for young Women. She recently received $100,000 to attend a 16 year old Girl’s birthday party. I cannot comprehend want kind of culture my Grandsons will be living in when they are 50. At the present trends, the North American Community will be Spanish Speaking or Moslem.

08-28-2006 09:51 PM

Re: A man responds
blaineso
Contributor
blaineso
So far I’ve only read exerpts from “The War on boys”.

I am pretty sure there’s an anti-boy culture in schools similar to the anti-man culture in overall society (witness all of those idiotic commericals and sitcoms.) I do however think that this is slowly starting 2 b recognized and dealt with.

08-28-2006 10:35 PM

Re: A man responds
DontMarryNoer
Regular Contributor
DontMarryNoer

blaineso wrote:
DontMarryNoer,

I went to the Wash post rebuttal you referenced as well as the other which I just don’t have time to read now. Here is one exerpt from the wash post piece:

“Most studies of sex difference in various forms of behavior show no statistically significant difference.”

The Wash post accuses Sommers of ignoring important scholarly works and debates, but gives no citations or footnotes to back it up. The above quote (among others) gives me serious pause. Do you (DontMarryNoer) seriously believe that there is no (statistically significant) “sex difference in various forms of behavior”?

With this type of thinking prominently presented in the post piece, I have to seriously doubt the conclusions they reached about the topic in general and Sommers in particular.

One indisputable example of how boys were discriminated against by the feminist movement was the “Take your daughters to work” day. That was by definition discrimination against boys. The thought process behind this was interesting, namely girls have been held back for so long that SOMETHING had to be done to get girls caught up (at least that was the argument i heard)? So the solution was to give girls an advantage over boys who had nothing to do with past inequities. That was some warped logic, and is indicative of the probability of other similarly styled programs that were likely implemented (although I have no immediate proof.)

p.s. There was actually a pretty good 60 minutes segment last night 8/27/06 on gay v. straight people. One part showed 2 twin boys, one who was very “girl-like” and the other more typically “boy-like”. The point I would draw is that even though there seem to be many factors entering into the determination of one’s masculinity or femininity, there are UNQUESTIONABLY masculine and feminine forms of behavior which statistically speaking evidence themselves early on in boys and girls respectively. The more feminine boy is cleary not in the statistical norm for boys.

It was a review, not a study. The reviewer’s name and occupation is listed above and that is the kind of research he does. If you’re going to get hung up on small pieces instead of the review as a whole, Google some of the findings.

I ask again: did you actually read the book? Go to Amazon.com; the woman does everything from attacking people who disagree with her instead of actually showing there is a war against boys to flat-out lying about something a teacher said in order to make her point more sound (the teacher was not happy).
As for the 60 Min. segment, what is that supposed to prove? Not all gay boys will be “feminine” by traditional American standards, not all straight men will be “masculine” by traditional American standards and what is traditionally masculine and feminine in the west would not be so in, say, certain parts of Africa. That is precuisely the problem with essensialist arguments: they are incomplete and ethno-centric.

08-29-2006 12:04 PM

Re: A man responds
blaineso
Contributor
blaineso
DontMarryNoer: ” If you’re going to get hung up on small pieces…”

Saying that there is no statistically significant “sex difference in various forms of behavior” is a HUGE indication of the position being taken. It’s also bizarre, and apparently an example of researchers making science up to fit the desired results. Boys and girls are VERY different in their behavioral norms from very early on (often by age 2 from my observation).

I did not yet read the book. However, I can draw some inferences about it from the Post rebuttal.

——————-
“As for the 60 Min. segment, what is that supposed to prove? Not all gay boys will be “feminine” by traditional American standards…”

The point is there are a notably feminine and masculine types of behavior that do indeed transcend cultures. “North American Indians” by George Caitlin clearly describes native american men who were noted as having distinctly feminine type behavior. Caitlin explored and lived with western indian tribes during the 1860’s &/or 70’s. He didn’t seem to make any judgement about these men, just noticed and described them.

Just bec “what is traditionally masculine and feminine in the west” COULD BE different from “say, certain parts of Africa” doesn’t mean it IS. Obviously there are some culturally determined masculine and feminine traits. The iranian friends I’ve had for ex. were much more comfortable with touching men than most western men. However, I bet their 4 year old boys pick up sticks and use them as swords or guns (with no prompting from adults) just the way american boys (but GENERALLY NOT girls) do. A statistically higher percentage of boys gravitate towards trucks and planes, etc, and girls similarly gravitate towards dolls, etc. Wishing the difference away for whatever reason, doesn’t make them actually go away. The differences are real and unmistakable.

08-29-2006 05:35 PM

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