Here are the facts


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Here are the facts
moneyneversleep

  1. Most men prefer not to marry career women and, if they do, it will typically end badly for them. They may date career women and enjoy sex and travel but you usually will not be their 1st choice for “wedded bliss”.
  2. I am happily single, with a girlfriend, and am quite direct with her as to what I want, what I will tolerate, what I won’t tolerate, etc. It makes for a more honest relationship. If she is a problem I will dump her as I have done in the past with other women.
  3. I will never marry, there is no advantage or gain to be had for me to marry.
  4. We (most men) will lie to women to get in bed with them. I have and don’t regret it.
  5. Most men, including myself, have done a “houdini” whereby we enjoy sex with you or you are our girlfriend and one day we vanish never to call or see you again as it is far easier, and safer, than having to deal with you doing something incredibly stupid.
  6. Most smart men never provide their work number or address to women they are dating. We don’t need harassment at work or someone interfering with our careers.
  7. Most smart men will carefully evaluate a woman before considering marriage.
  8. Most smart men, even those who have not enjoyed great success yet, will require a prenuptial agreement before even considering marriage.
  9. Most smart men would require a dna test to confirm paternity, whether they are married or not.
  10. Most men really don’t care what vitriol you are spouting. It doesn’t matter to us most of the time and most of us practice selective hearing.
  11. Most men don’t sweat petty issues, as women seem to do all the time.
  12. The best a woman will ever look is at one of 2 junctures: 1) when she is a teenager, or 2) the day she is married. At both stages they are typically self-indulgent and worthless. I have told men on their wedding day that this is the best she will ever look and it is downhill from here and not to do it. I truly enjoyed telling them that and seeing the look of confusion they have.
  13. Most smart men will never marry under the current legal environment. Again, there is no inherent advantage and anyone who claims to be getting married for altruistic reasons or because it’s the “right thing to do” is lying to themselves. People do things to benefit themselves and for personal reasons. Marriage is, (and should not be) not different from this maxim of enlightened self-interest.
  14. Most smart men (myself included) will not date or become involved with a woman in their working environment. It is very stupid.
  15. Most men of means and income (myself included) prefer younger, beautiful women as we can afford them. When they become older they must trade down, whereas as we become older we usually trade in for the newer, improved, younger model. It is a fact.

Spout your platitudes and anger all you want. Belittle and attack all you want. It doesn’t matter. I voted with my feet long ago. I don’t tell women who to date or how to treat men and I don’t care what they tell me. It does not matter. I will treat women as they treat me or wish to be treated, as evidenced by their attitude and actions. Nonetheless, most women exhibit traits of irrationality that make them dangerous at times and it is usually necessary to insure that they cannot hurt you.

Ladies, you will find many men who vehemently disagree with you. The facts are that I disagree with much of what you have to say for coldly pragmatic, practical and logical reasons. If I met you I would be charming and deferent, as it is politically expedient, but my actual actions would be much more indicative that I don’t care. In my profession there are very few women I am made to suffer from dealing with, thankfully. The ones who are in investment banking and M/A are usually quite good at their jobs (albeit quite ugly, as a general rule), but they are typically not the decision makers but more in a support role. Individuals such as myself set the agenda and make the decisions.

08-29-2006 10:40 AM

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Re: Here are the facts
Democles

Good post!

08-29-2006 10:57 AM

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Re: Here are the facts
ericca_jsu

What a very vain disconnected existence you must have to be so detached from yourself and women. You should read your message for what is called sterotyping, you are so untrusting you may come to eat your words one day, love knows no prenups no boundaries when given over to destiny it can truly manifest itself. While you try to control your feelings and life as you seemingly do very well you restrict your experience to only that which you perceive as profitable for yourself when you seek to serve life and not for it to serve you; you will find that it happens. How long have we as a people suppressed others? How long did we allow slavery to take place and realize that women just started having these “career” opportunities in the past century? Now everyone is out to take us down for trying to take care of ourselves. So you know what career women might have all those statistics and probabilities but we have not had the chance to evolve our behavior and values as long as men have in such a world of opportunity that we have just began to discover. Honestly there is a story that was a true research project done on apes that were kept in a cage over a period of years. Over the years many of the apes had tried to climb out of a pole that was in the middle of the room in order to find a better land and place than that in which they lived. The apes when they first were put in the room had so much enthusiasm and tried to get out of the room but soon found that they could not escape which was the control group, the apes that had been there for long periods of time in control group one were taught you can not go anywhere but here in this room then additional groups were brought in, the controlled group pulled the new apes down and scolded them for trying to get out of the cage. Soon the new apes adapted the attitude of the older ones and eventually stopped trying to climb out of the small room that they were told was there life. Then another group was introduced and a small hole was out in the ceiling of the room the apes fought for the way out and some who tried to escape were brought down and almost killed by the others. But soon hope began to emerge and a larger hole was created until soon a group of apes was allowed to make it out of the room. While many of the controlled group sat on the floor in a very limited plain existence because they feared or not ever bother anymore to try to climb out of the room. What is better to you or me is our decision and I can’t chastise you for the way you feel but I urge you to climb the pole and look and see if there is another room of existence and open your arms to change.

08-29-2006 11:28 AM

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Re: Here are the facts
porkchops38

ericca_jsu wrote:

What a very vain disconnected existence you must have to be so detached from yourself and women. You should read your message for what is called sterotyping, you are so untrusting you may come to eat your words one day, love knows no prenups no boundaries when given over to destiny it can truly manifest itself. While you try to control your feelings and life as you seemingly do very well you restrict your experience to only that which you perceive as profitable for yourself when you seek to serve life and not for it to serve you; you will find that it happens. How long have we as a people suppressed others? How long did we allow slavery to take place and realize that women just started having these “career” opportunities in the past century? Now everyone is out to take us down for trying to take care of ourselves. So you know what career women might have all those statistics and probabilities but we have not had the chance to evolve our behavior and values as long as men have in such a world of opportunity that we have just began to discover. Honestly there is a story that was a true research project done on apes that were kept in a cage over a period of years. Over the years many of the apes had tried to climb out of a pole that was in the middle of the room in order to find a better land and place than that in which they lived. The apes when they first were put in the room had so much enthusiasm and tried to get out of the room but soon found that they could not escape which was the control group, the apes that had been there for long periods of time in control group one were taught you can not go anywhere but here in this room then additional groups were brought in, the controlled group pulled the new apes down and scolded them for trying to get out of the cage. Soon the new apes adapted the attitude of the older ones and eventually stopped trying to climb out of the small room that they were told was there life. Then another group was introduced and a small hole was out in the ceiling of the room the apes fought for the way out and some who tried to escape were brought down and almost killed by the others. But soon hope began to emerge and a larger hole was created until soon a group of apes was allowed to make it out of the room. While many of the controlled group sat on the floor in a very limited plain existence because they feared or not ever bother anymore to try to climb out of the room. What is better to you or me is our decision and I can’t chastise you for the way you feel but I urge you to climb the pole and look and see if there is another room of existence and open your arms to change.

Excellent analogy! That’s why I’m going to buy a plane ticket overseas (climb the pole) and find myself in a whole ‘nother room of existence. There are many men who are climbing that pole and getting overseas and finding that other room of existence filled with sane women instead of insane ape women.

08-29-2006 11:39 AM

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Re: Here are the facts
CH

When I read Errica’s post I can see why men think all women are crazy. On the other hand, I agree with her that you guys need to look beyond your own bad experiences and realize that, career focused gold diggers aside, there are plenty of women out there that would give up everything, including their careers for a family and children. You’re just unlikely to ever meet them or give them the time of day with that attitude. This whole discussion has made me loose faith in both men and women.

08-29-2006 11:44 AM

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Re: Here are the facts
moneyneversleep

Don’t confuse bad experiences with practicality. I have had no bad experiences. I have seen others with bad experiences. What you are promoting, essentially, is for women to be practical and for men to abandon reason and logic. Only a fool will do that. I am merely being practical, pragmatic and logical. Marriage is a business transaction. Remember, the 1st thing that most women ask in divorce is “how much”. That is how much money will they get. Divorce is merely a business deal gone bad. As is the case of most business transactions the swiftest exit is usually the least expensive and costly in terms of money and time.

08-29-2006 11:49 AM

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Re: Here are the facts
AngryMuppet

moneyneversleep wrote:
1. Most men prefer not to marry career women and, if they do, it will typically end badly for them. They may date career women and enjoy sex and travel but you usually will not be their 1st choice for “wedded bliss”.

2. I am happily single, with a girlfriend, and am quite direct with her as to what I want, what I will tolerate, what I won’t tolerate, etc. It makes for a more honest relationship. If she is a problem I will dump her as I have done in the past with other women.

3. I will never marry, there is no advantage or gain to be had for me to marry.

4. We (most men) will lie to women to get in bed with them. I have and don’t regret it.

5. Most men, including myself, have done a “houdini” whereby we enjoy sex with you or you are our girlfriend and one day we vanish never to call or see you again as it is far easier, and safer, than having to deal with you doing something incredibly stupid.

6. Most smart men never provide their work number or address to women they are dating. We don’t need harassment at work or someone interferring with our careers.

7. Most smart men will carefully evaluate a woman before considering marriage.

8. Most smart men, even those who have not enjoyed great success yet, will require a prenuptial agreement before even considering marriage.

9. Most smart men would require a dna test to confirm paternity, whether they are married or not.

10.Most men really don’t care what vitriol you are spouting. It doesn’t matter to us most of the time and most of us practice selective hearing.

11.Most men don’t sweat petty issues, as women seem to do all the time.

12.The best a woman will ever look is at one of 2 junctures: 1) when she is a teenager, or 2) the day she is married. At both stages they are typically self-indulgent and worthless. I have told men on their wedding day that this is the best she will ever look and it is downhill from here and not to do it. I truly enjoyed telling them that and seeing the look of confusion they have.

13.Most smart men will never marry under the current legal environment. Again, there is no inherent advantage and anyone who claims to be getting married for altruistic reasons or because it’s the “right thing to do” is lying to themselves. People do things to benefit themselves and for personal reasons. Marriage is, (and should not be) not different from this maxim of enlightened self-interest.

14.Most smart men (myself included) will not date or become involved with a woman in their working environment. It is very stupid.

15.Most men of means and income (myself included) prefer younger, beautiful women as we can afford them. When they become older they must trade down, whereas as we become older we usually trade in for the newer, improved, younger model. It is a fact.

Spout your platitudes and anger all you want. Belittle and attack all you want. It doesn’t matter. I voted with my feet long ago. I don’t tell women who to date or how to treat men and I don’t care what they tell me. It does not matter. I will treat women as they treat me or wish to be treated, as evidenced by their attitude and actions. Nonetheless, most women exhibit traits of irrationality that make them dangerous at times and it is usually necessary to insure that they cannot hurt you.

Ladies, you will find many men who vehemently disagree with you. The facts are that I disagree with much of what you have to say for coldly pragmatic, practical and logical reasons. If I met you I would be charming and defferent, as it is politically expedient, but my actual actions would be much more indicative that I don’t care. In my profession there are very few women I am made to suffer from dealing with, thankfully. The ones who are in investment banking and M/A are usually quite good at their jobs (albeit quite ugly, as a general rule), but they are typically not the decision makers but more in a support role. Individuals such as myself set the agenda and make the decisions.

What struck me is how you unapologetically weasel out on relationships and lie to women in order to have sex with them. Those are not qualities that strike me as particularly “manly.” Instead, I think they’re cowardly and puerile. You are clearly terrified of women, and seem pretty scared in general. I wouldn’t be proud of that if I were you. I’d be disappointed in myself. Taking the “easy way out” is often an act of cowardice by those too afraid to stand up for themselves (anywhere other than the Forbes message board).

Fellow men: this guy is an example of how NOT to act if you’re really a man.

08-29-2006 12:02 PM

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Re: Here are the facts
CH

Fair enough assessment (and spoken like a true investment banker). I don’t blame most men for not wanting to take the risk. I have two brothers and one doesn’t want to get married because of current divorce laws outlined in these messages. I just find it sad and pathetic how low men and women have sunk in their estimation of each other.

08-29-2006 12:03 PM

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Re: Here are the facts
moneyneversleep

Don’t give yourself so much credit. You are being wholly impractical and unrealistic. While you are collecting social security I will be living well paying for my own retirement and enjoying life. With the likelihood of divorce at least 50% the odds favor you being fleeced, having 1/2 of your law enforcement pension (you did say you were in law enforcement) going to an ex-wife, paying her support, paying her mortgage/rent, seeing any children you may have 4-8 days per month. Enjoy it as it is the best you can hope for with a view tinted by rose colored lenses that you enjoy. You really don’t have the experience or knowledge to make the assessment that you did. Your statements are typical and akin to US Servicemen who get married between the ages of 18-25 who are “in love” and then see their state bound wives divorce them, have children by other men (that their husbands pay for), take 1/2 of their pension, etc. Come back when you have seen more of the world and are better qualified to comment from a position of fact.

08-29-2006 12:09 PM

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Re: Here are the facts
jewels

Brrrr…… somebody shut the door on that money vault, it’s cold in there. (Oops, what’s that in the corner….is that moneyneversleep catnapping with the bouillon again?) Sad that money’s so important to us in this material world but unacceptable to do without it. Warming one’s hands over the trash can in the street doesn’t work too well either. Happiness lies somewhere in the middle I think.

08-29-2006 12:51 PM

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Re: Here are the facts
moneyneversleep

It may lie somewhere in the middle, but only if you sign a prenuptial agreement. Sorry, but with divorce a 50/50 proposition, it is a risk not worth taking without some assurances and protection for my future. You really must admit that is a reasonable request.

08-29-2006 12:54 PM

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Re: Here are the facts
ericca_jsu

Hmmm..well having a M.S. in Counseling Psychology and an MBA I can identify with you analogy of the relationship like that of a business transaction I have had the same ideas as you honestly I really thought the same thing and felt the same way you feel about relationships. You know that as we (women) become breadwinners there are also now more men that are saying how much when the divorce papers are signed and it is a scary thing a man looses 77% of his net worth when you go through a divorce so why gamble right? Go with the facts logic and stability we need people like that in the world but there are also some who will abandon logic and reason and take the 77% chance of loosing worldly tangibles for one who has not love has not anything.

08-29-2006 01:06 PM

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Re: Here are the facts
moneyneversleep

You can’t eat love. You can’t pay the mortgage with love. You can pay the utilities or insurance with love. It is doubtful that women will exceed men, overall, in the generation of income and wealth. Possible, but doubtful. Regardless pf that, a woman should have no problem signing a prenuptial waiving any and all claims to spousal support, career earnings, assets owned by said husband, etc. If she does and trots out “don’t you love me, don’t you trust me”, that is a man’s cue to vote with his feet and leave. Your last sentence only illustrates how you will attempt to manipulate a man to not have you execute a prenuptial agreement. If a woman truly loves me she will sign the prenup.

08-29-2006 01:13 PM

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Re: Here are the facts
ericca_jsu

I can not say what is good for me is well for another but I believe that life has a destiny and we do the best we can to survive until we find that destiny and many times what we fear the most will come upon us but when we have nothing to fear we have nothing to loose and when we die to that fear we truly begin to live and love. But that is my truth it may not be yours. I am just sharing my experiences.

08-29-2006 01:14 PM

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Re: Here are the facts
moneyneversleep

Having flown in 2 combat theatres after my graduation from 1 of the 3 US Military Academies, having seen what I have seen in life I have no time for pop psychology and the crap it represents, no time for religious nutjobs, relics from Haight Asbury, those who don’t believe in evolution etc. Sorry, but the reality you promote is not reality. I am a cold blooded pragmatist. It doesn’t prevent me from enjoying the finer things in life, only making stupid choices.

08-29-2006 01:18 PM

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Re: Here are the facts
ericca_jsu

Well being raised in the army and currently working for them also helps me to identify with the things you have seen and I am not promoting pop psycholgy or religion to you only my truth and what you know as yours is fine I see what you are saying about if a woman loved you she would have no problem signing a prenup and that is you; so loving you would mean that someone would have to be willing to understand and accept that part of you. There was a great general who once said that there are other things to live for in life besides love like duty and honor. His wife taught him that: Those things are not life they are the shells of life and empty ones if all they hold are days and days without love. You have seen a world void of love my compassion for you is because I have felt your truth and it is bitter and cold at that.

08-29-2006 01:28 PM

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Re: Here are the facts
moneyneversleep

It is not my truth, it is “the” truth. Yes, I love my girlfriend, but unlike most women and most men I am very direct and say what I mean and mean what I say. Life is too short.

08-29-2006 01:40 PM

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Re: Here are the facts
ericca_jsu

You allow me to control you and I have just met you, and you say that you would not be easily manipulated by a woman by arousing your anger you allow others control over your emotions, your money will control you by your greed. Just think it over… as I will think over your comment.

08-29-2006 01:50 PM

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Re: Here are the facts
moneyneversleep

You are not controlling me. Don’t confuse ambition and a desire not to be eviscerated financially by divorce with greed. You are just a sad woman who doesn’t like the rules I play by. No, I am not angry, it is a wasted emotion. I am practical and pragmatic.

08-29-2006 01:54 PM

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Re: Here are the facts
moneyneversleep

Bear this in mind. If a woman truly loves a man, she would have no problem signing a prenuptial agreement. There, it is all about love.

08-29-2006 01:57 PM

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Re: Here are the facts
ericca_jsu

Life is indeed short very well indeed…I am sure your girlfriend is very happy and blessed and so are you to be loved.

08-29-2006 02:05 PM

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Re: Here are the facts
ACatInSD

Yes, I agree with the pre-nump part that both side need to sign it before marriage or serious relationship. I am a woman, and I made the money all by myself – it is MY blood and sweat that makes me have a great life. I don’t want my future husband to take part of it away from me one day he thinks he doesn’t love me anymore.

The point is that most women are less rich than men. I am lucky in this part and I agree with men here 🙂

08-29-2006 02:13 PM

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Re: Here are the facts
porkchops38

ACatInSD wrote:
Yes, I agree with the pre-nump part that both side need to sign it before marriage or serious relationship. I am a woman, and I made the money all by myself – it is MY blood and sweat that makes me have a great life. I don’t want my future husband to take part of it away from me one day he thinks he doesn’t love me anymore.

The point is that most women are less rich than men. I am lucky in this part and I agree with men here

The point is that you are lucky because you are more rich than most men?

Then why did you just say one sentence earlier that you “made all the money by yourself” and that it is your blood and sweat that makes you have a great life? That’s a rhetorical question cupcake, no need to answer. I just pointing out the contradictions when women speak one sentence after another, one sentence it’s “luck” that made you richer than most men, and the previous sentence it’s “blood, sweat, etc.”, that made you richer than most men… LMAO

08-29-2006 03:11 PM

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Re: Here are the facts
ericca_jsu

I don’t care what rules you play by that is your life not mine I was only sharing my ideas with you statistics show that prenups increase the likely hood of divorce even more than no prenup. But in any case I am not trying to convert you to no prenup to thine own self be true.

08-29-2006 04:04 PM

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Re: Here are the facts
ericca_jsu

You agree with men???? or the person who posted the message I know plenty of men who do not feel this way some women who do not identify well with other women feel that classifying themselves with men makes them superior to other women thus feeding human need to fan the flames of the fire of pride. Why not make a statement on your own? Just want you to think about what and why you posted what you did? To state how you felt or who you identified more with?

08-29-2006 04:14 PM

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Re: Here are the facts
ACatInSD

Dear Pork,

A lot of people work hard with their blood and sweat but they are still not rich. I happen to have both working for me: hardworking and good luck.

The world and life is too simple in your eyes. By the way, I like your nickname here 🙂

08-29-2006 05:44 PM

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Re: Here are the facts
moneyneversleep

Cupcake, rather than opening your piehole and blanketly stating the prenuptial agreements actually increase the likelihood of divorce why don’t you cite an actual verifiable, credible source which uses accepted statistical, empirical data. Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Only a fool would not require an agreement limiting their exposure. In California (A community property state) if you are married for 10 years or more you are legally obligated to pay spousal support for life, or until your or your former spouses death, or until she elects to remarry. Now, if I am paying a former spouse copious amounts of money why should she remarry when she is on the permanent gravy train? This would be in addition to an equal distribution of the assets acquired or commingled during the marriage, a percentage or your business, etc. You really are out to lunch.

Message Edited by moneyneversleep on 08-29-2006 07:30 PM

08-29-2006 07:29 PM

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