Honesty


Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – Honesty

Honesty
JWatkins
Contributor
JWatkins
Would career women here at least admit they are ‘partly’ to blame for the fact many men aren’t interested in them?

All articles in response to the original article have mocked men, sneeringly asking us to face up to the ‘challenge’ of a career woman (a tacit admission career women are more difficult), and played on stupid stereotypes that offend me. It only reinforces my sentiments about career women.

What do career women here think?

I’m not interesting in people throwing insults around, you should all grow up.

Message Edited by JWatkins on 08-30-2006 02:39 AM

08-30-2006 02:35 AM

Re: Honesty
GenghisKhan
Regular Contributor
GenghisKhan
I can’t wait for this.

08-30-2006 02:38 AM

Re: Honesty
PatriarchVerlch
Regular Contributor
PatriarchVerlch

Let’s hold our breath!!!

Women have been proving for the last 30 years that men have been right for the last 30 centuries!
http://www.verlch.blogspot.com

08-30-2006 02:49 AM

Re: Honesty
PatriarchVerlch
Regular Contributor
PatriarchVerlch

56% of marriages end in divorce. Face it ladies your eggs are going to start drying up, you only have 360 of them. Your not worth the risks.

Women have been proving for the last 30 years that men have been right for the last 30 centuries!
http://www.verlch.blogspot.com

08-30-2006 02:50 AM

Re: Honesty
JWatkins
Contributor
JWatkins
Guys, let’s not spoil another thread. I want to see some constructive discussion, which will be good for us all, right?

08-30-2006 02:55 AM

Re: Honesty
PatriarchVerlch
Regular Contributor
PatriarchVerlch

Sorry, as you wish.

Come on ladies, JW won’t bite!

Women have been proving for the last 30 years that men have been right for the last 30 centuries!
http://www.verlch.blogspot.com

08-30-2006 03:01 AM

Re: Honesty
shovel
Regular Contributor
shovel
Would career women here at least admit they are ‘partly’ to blame for the fact many men aren’t interested in them?

All articles in response to the original article have mocked men, sneeringly asking us to face up to the ‘challenge’ of a career woman (a tacit admission career women are more difficult), and played on stupid stereotypes that offend me. It only reinforces my sentiments about career women.

What do career women here think?

I’m not interesting in people throwing insults around, you should all grow up.

I don’t know…you guys just choose not to reply to intelligent points.

As far as the first question, I can’t imagine why a woman’s choice to follow her desired path in life would make her any less appealing to a man compatible with her. A woman who didn’t want to be a SAHM, but did it anyway “for the sake of the marriage” could also turn out to be pretty unattractive, especially if she was depressed and angry.

I guess I’m also wondering how a question with “blame” and “attraction” constitutes any sort of intellectual discussion in the first place?

Shoudn’t you be talking about “career people” in general being more difficult (career men certainly are so)? If you do decide to marry, neither one should be “married” to the job.

Speaking of stupid stereotypes, let’s cover a few from some of the men here:

1. All women want to be married, and will feel threatened by a “marriage strike” from men they don’t care about to begin with.
2. Women above must be “ugly” or “sluts” if they are ambivalent about marriage, whether or not she wants to marry a man who isn’t attracted to her.
3. Women who aren’t married have no place in society, and cannot possibly own dogs. They are worth nothing unless involved with men. If they are not involved with men, they are “bitter.”
4. Career women are bad. Non-career women are also bad in a divorce, if they cannot support themselves.

08-30-2006 04:37 AM

Re: Honesty
shovel
Regular Contributor
shovel
(forgot one)

5. Women are merely displayed, as if on a shelf in a grocery store, waiting for a man to pick and choose as a partner. She has absolutely so say in the matter.

08-30-2006 04:40 AM

Re: Honesty
JWatkins
Contributor
JWatkins
See Shovel, this is exactly the response I was talking about. You practically avoided the question I posed, and instead took it as an opportunity to post a series vitriolic anti-male polemics based on old fashioned stereotypes – so much for claiming it’s men who live in the dark ages. What is that going to solve? Is that going to pursuade men into marrying career girls?

If you have no desire to marry, then I can’t see why you should have any interest in this discussion as it would be irrelevant to you. It’s certainly not going to help any career women here trying to understand why men may not want them.

————————————————
As far as the first question, I can’t imagine why a woman’s choice to follow her desired path in life would make her any less appealing to a man compatible with her. A woman who didn’t want to be a SAHM, but did it anyway “for the sake of the marriage” could also turn out to be pretty unattractive, especially if she was depressed and angry.
————————————————

You say you ‘can’t imagine’ why a career woman would be less appealling to a man than a stay-at-home wife – could that possibly be because you aren’t a man, buttercup? You fabricate a train of thought to justify attraction to a career woman, but it certainly isn’t one a man would follow (as ANY man would tell you), it’s what you would like him to follow.

I think one of the problems few men are interested in career women is because of the attitudes presented above. Career women are far more narcissistic and less likely to see things from a male perspective than a non-career woman would. Career women delude themselves into thinking they are always right, irrespective to what reality dictates. And I’d say that is one of the reasons a honest career man would prefer a non-career woman over a career woman.

Anyway, I hope other women do contribute and can give a provide better insight than Shovel has done so far.

I’m out for now, I’ve got a career to attend to.

08-30-2006 05:10 AM

Re: Honesty
Anti_Feminist
Regular Contributor
Anti_Feminist

Is it just because I have sore eyes or does this girl state in her first paragraph that she can’t imagine why people who follow careers are more difficult, then here her third paragraph in brackets say but career men are certainly more difficult??? Then mock the original poster for not being intelligent?

Claiming to be our equals is the greatest insult women have ever slapped in the face of men!!!!!!!!!!!!!

08-30-2006 05:32 AM

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Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – Honesty

Re: Honesty
Happy_Bullet
Regular Contributor
Happy_Bullet

Hm we hit the three hour mark with no response to a yes/no question…

We’re still waiting right? *twiddles thumbs*

Men have standards. Women will be compared. DEAL WITH IT.

08-30-2006 05:41 AM

Re: Honesty
Happy_Bullet
Regular Contributor
Happy_Bullet

Okay four hours has passed, and not one answer to the question posed in this thread. After all that, after women saying we are sick and blaming us for not wanting them, we go four hours without any women reading the forum being able to express a little bit of honesty.

I knew things were bad and I think I underestimated how bad. That vindicates me, I’m out.

Men have standards. Women will be compared. DEAL WITH IT.

08-30-2006 06:51 AM

Re: Honesty
Isis
Contributor
Isis

JWatkins wrote:
Would career women here at least admit they are ‘partly’ to blame for the fact many men aren’t interested in them?

For myself, I truly don’t understand your question. On these boards, many reasons have been listed why “men aren’t interested in career women”. Here are two.:

1. Men (unclear what percentage) really only want someone who will stay at home and keep house and raise children.

2. Here is your quote:
I think one of the problems few men are interested in career women is because of the attitudes presented above. Career women are far more narcissistic and less likely to see things from a male perspective than a non-career woman would.
So somehow, career women are not as nurturing as non-career women.

As for the first, for myself, I would be utterly incapable of staying home, keeping house, and raising children. I could do it for the first 18 months or so of a child’s life, but past that, I would go completely mad.

As for the second, I am not sure where your proof of your statement lies. I know lots of women at work who are caring, nurturing individuals. Corcoran, in her original rebuttal, seems to be a wife who loves her husband and sees things from his perspective.

I don’t know where you work, but perhaps the women in your field tend to be more self-centered, in order to succeed in that field. Is that possible?

I’m sorry, I don’t think the word “blame” applies to the situation. You are extremely angry and bitter, and looking to alleviate that pain, but women, especially caring and considerate women, can’t help you with this one.

08-30-2006 08:17 AM

Re: Honesty
Hedgie
Regular Contributor
Hedgie

Shovel is already married, to a Brazilian-Japanese guy, so it’s hard to see why she’s participating in this discussion unless she just likes bashing men, which only goes to prove Dr. Watkins’s original point.

08-30-2006 09:48 AM

Re: Honesty
CH
Contributor
CH
JWatkins: I guess I technically qualify as a career woman, more by circumstance than choice. Maybe Manhattan is an exception to other places but I’ve actually broken up with men who assumed I was going to work once we had children. I don’t believe in daycare or the government taking care of any future family of mine. Anyway, to answer your question, women are definitely partly to blame. Women throw around the word choice like it’s the word of God, yet when men choose to not not go along with their plans, they become irrational and demand otherwise. Unfortunately, some of the obnoxious posts from the men here show an attitude that contributes to a breakdown in relationships as well. It seems that every time a man or woman is burned in a relationship, he/she feels justified in taking his/her anger out on the next person who comes along in their life. I think we’ve all been guilty of condeming all of the opposite sex. Do I blame radical feminism on most of the issues – yes. It mocked the idea that women shoud be nurturing and fatherhood is vital to the development of both men and women. Did it give the green light for men blame all women – certainly not.

08-30-2006 10:12 AM

Re: Honesty
dumbbroad
Regular Contributor
dumbbroad

JW — in your first post, you tell women to grow up and not hurl insults, but later make a blanket statement about all career women being “far more narcissistic” than non career women and that they “delude themselves into thinking they are always right, irrespective to what reality dictates” — is that not insulting?

as for taking the blame for why men are not interested … men are interested. not many men on this board, but they do exist, so i’m not sure i could respond.

if you want me to answer why guys on this board are not interested, i think they’ve already told us ad nauseum. they want a calm, stable home life and don’t believe a career woman will provide that environment. fine. got it. don’t agree, but i got it.

08-30-2006 10:20 AM

Re: Honesty
Back2TheKitchen
Regular Contributor
Back2TheKitchen

dumbbroad wrote:

as for taking the blame for why men are not interested … men are interested. not many men on this board, but they do exist, so i’m not sure i could respond.

Interested men existed before this article woke them up to the pitfalls of marrying empowered career grrls.

Now, I think it’s safe to say, they’re no longer interested.

“With women or the female mindset imparted through feminization on the vast majority of society, it will be very easy to control the Empire…I mean…the republic.” – mirrorofthesoul.blogspot.com

08-30-2006 11:08 AM

Re: Honesty
dumbbroad
Regular Contributor
dumbbroad

if reading this article changed a man’s opinion about marriage, then good riddance to bad rubbish. a smart woman wouldn’t need someone so easily persuaded by such trash.

08-30-2006 01:13 PM

Re: Honesty
DSeverin
Visitor
DSeverin
Would career women here at least admit they are ‘partly’ to blame for the fact many men aren’t interested in them?

I don’t think there’s anything to feel partly to blame for since this isn’t an issue of equal responsibility but preference. I don’t feel any kind of “guilt” when a man who is attracted to tall women isn’t attracted to me. If a man for whatever reason decides he’s not attracted to career women why should I feel any guilt?

To me trying to make a blanket statement about all career women is just as foolish as trying to make a blanket statement about all men. Are some career women difficult to get along with? Yes. Are some career women perfectly agreeable? Undoubtedly. The same thing can be said for career men. At the end of the day each person simply has to decide what he or she wants in a partner. If a man feels that career women are unattractive then he shouldn’t marry them. It’s as simple as that.

I came from a home where both parents worked and my parents are still together more than 20 years later. I also know many men who are attracted to career-focused women. If I want to be in a relationship, those are the kind of men that I want to be with. Does that mean men who don’t like career women should feel partly to blame because I’m not attracted to them? Obviously not.

At the end of the day marriages with incompatible partners are the ones which fail. What’s important is finding someone with the same values as you. If you’re a man who doesn’t want his wife to work, who am I to object? There is bound to be a woman out there for you who’s equally uninterested in working. I’ve never felt pressured to find a mate or less attractive to men simply because I have a job. Because I know I’d like to build a career, I look for men who are supportive of that decision and find it attractive because we are simply more compatible and that’s what makes our relationship work. I don’t have to stereotype men as backward, unfeeling or irresponsible to recognize that different people have different preferences and politics. Likewise as a woman with a career, I simply form relationships with men who can appreciate both the person and the career.

08-30-2006 01:18 PM

Re: Honesty
zacharias
Regular Contributor
zacharias
” I don’t have to stereotype men as backward, unfeeling or irresponsible to recognize that different people have different preferences and politics.”

Bravo! – a rare voice of sanity in the shouting match!

08-30-2006 01:27 PM

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Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – Honesty

Re: Honesty
PatriarchVerlch
Regular Contributor
PatriarchVerlch

She just needs a sperm donar before her eggs dry up so she can create more fatherlessness and social problems.

Taxes are high enough lady.

Women have been proving for the last 30 years that men have been right for the last 30 centuries!
http://www.verlch.blogspot.com

08-30-2006 05:38 PM

Re: Honesty
JWatkins
Contributor
JWatkins
Great responses all around.

CH, nice to see a woman support and show some respect for a man and acknowledge his right to choice. I’ve sifted through dozens of pages filled with anti-male stereotypes and slurs, so it’s especially nice to see someone respecting men.

As for men here making obnoxious posts, well, I don’t condone it but the overall attitude of many of the women here towards a man’s right to choose is appalling. Hopefully your comments will put things into perspective.

Lsis, the fact that you wouldn’t want to raise children would certainly count against you as a prospective wife, but there are other criteria in addition to childrearing they may find cause to prefer a housewife over a career wife, take personal health and happiness for example.

I’m a physician and many of the more successful women I encounter (although there are not many at my level – because of high stress and long working hours medicine has a high female attrition rate) do seem more narcissitic, but I’d imagine you see that at in any competitive profession.

As for your ad hominem attacks, no I am not angry nor bitter as I’ve got nothing to be bitter about, I’m not married and never have been. I’m unhappy with the way the media attacks men and portrays them as weak, bad fathers and stupid – despite the fact that 99.99% of civilisation’s progression was due to men.

Dumb broad, there’s a difference between posting inflammatory insults to provoke a reaction and what I said. First I put a qualifier to what I said – I said most, not all, and secondly I don’t think narcissism is necessarily a bad thing. To be successful in a career, a degree of narcissism is often required – many people have called me narcissistic, and I believe there is a element of truth about it.

But in my opinion, male and female narcissism is perceived differently in the context of a relationship. Male narcissism translates is more likely to translate into confidence, whereas female narcissism is perceived as arrogance.

08-30-2006 06:12 PM

Re: Honesty
ACatInSD
Regular Contributor
ACatInSD

JW,

you said :”But in my opinion, male and female narcissism is perceived differently in the context of a relationship. Male narcissism translates is more likely to translate into confidence, whereas female narcissism is perceived as arrogance. ”

My two cents here is that male narcissism translates into over-confidence, which is usually equavalent to arrogance and crime (Enron, and other male CEOs who are liars, who have been found out and who haven’t), and crazy hesteria such as wars and massacres (don’t forgot which gender initiated these – from history channel).

Female narcissism translates into an evil manager with arrogance at work, a mean wife that doesn’t cook or clean or even develop some affairs, or a badgirlfriend that dumps her man.

Now which side is more evil?

08-30-2006 07:15 PM

Re: Honesty
rudegubmintwrkr
Visitor
rudegubmintwrkr

First, I fit only 2 out of three “criteria” to be a “career woman”, so I guess I’m not one.  (The one I’m lacking is the 30K+ salary).  So, I don’t suppose you want my opinion.  But, I’ll give it anyway.

There are women in all walks of life who mock men, give ridiculous challenges and use stereotypes.  You should hear some of the women in my office…and all positions in my office are not “career woman” positions by any stretch of the imagination.  (We all just have “jobs”.)  I cringe at some of the things they say, and I’m not even a man.  I’ve known female students, “career students”, and stay at home moms who also mock men.  It has nothing to do, IMHO, with their rank in life.  Many women out there are bitter, sarcastic, angry, mean and depressed.  I don’t think it’s fair to single out career women to ask about fault and blame.

Besides, if all career women were, in fact, arrogant, mocking know-it-alls, do you think they’d take the blame for anything?  Of course not!  So why even ask the question?  You’d get a better response from a tree.

You titled your topic honesty.  Well, I think one of the main reasons marriages are either rocky or break up is lack of honesty before marriage.  (That along with lack of trying to make the marriage work, lack of compromise and self-centeredness on both sides.)  Not all people but so many people are so phony while they date, say things they don’t mean, pretend and struggle to put on their best faces until the marriage certificate is signed.  Then it’s “Boom, Here’s the Real Me!”  People may not even realize they are doing so.  I tried my best to be honest and act myself while I was dating.  Guess that’s why I dated briefly or was in relationships with about 20 different men before I found the one to marry.    Hubby and I get along fabulously and respect one another.  And I’m not taking the blame because the other men didn’t want to marry me.  That’s just the way it is.  They had the right to seek out what they desired.  No hard feelings.

08-30-2006 07:57 PM

Re: Honesty
ACatInSD
Regular Contributor
ACatInSD

Good post rudegbmintwrkr. You are a smart woman.

It took you about 20 men to find the right one? I have a long way to go if it applies to me

I will find a place to cry.

08-30-2006 08:53 PM

Re: Honesty
zacharias
Regular Contributor
zacharias

Ah, a refreshing voice of sanity among all the hurled insults.

rudegubmintwrkr wrote:
First, I fit only 2 out of three “criteria” to be a “career woman”, so I guess I’m not one.  (The one I’m lacking is the 30K+ salary).  So, I don’t suppose you want my opinion.  But, I’ll give it anyway.

There are women in all walks of life who mock men, give ridiculous challenges and use stereotypes.  You should hear some of the women in my office…and all positions in my office are not “career woman” positions by any stretch of the imagination.  (We all just have “jobs”.)  I cringe at some of the things they say, and I’m not even a man.  I’ve known female students, “career students”, and stay at home moms who also mock men.  It has nothing to do, IMHO, with their rank in life.  Many women out there are bitter, sarcastic, angry, mean and depressed.  I don’t think it’s fair to single out career women to ask about fault and blame.

Besides, if all career women were, in fact, arrogant, mocking know-it-alls, do you think they’d take the blame for anything?  Of course not!  So why even ask the question?  You’d get a better response from a tree.

You titled your topic honesty.  Well, I think one of the main reasons marriages are either rocky or break up is lack of honesty before marriage.  (That along with lack of trying to make the marriage work, lack of compromise and self-centeredness on both sides.)  Not all people but so many people are so phony while they date, say things they don’t mean, pretend and struggle to put on their best faces until the marriage certificate is signed.  Then it’s “Boom, Here’s the Real Me!”  People may not even realize they are doing so.  I tried my best to be honest and act myself while I was dating.  Guess that’s why I dated briefly or was in relationships with about 20 different men before I found the one to marry.    Hubby and I get along fabulously and respect one another.  And I’m not taking the blame because the other men didn’t want to marry me.  That’s just the way it is.  They had the right to seek out what they desired.  No hard feelings.

Well said, rudegubmintwrkr – not one mention of the size of men’s genitals; not one accusation that men were just neanderthals obsessed with knocking women in the head, dragging them into the kitchen, stealing their shoes, and chaining them to the stove; not one bit of the hysterical shrieking which characterized the first few days of this latest skirmish in the gender wars; not one put down of men.

To the other women out there – see it is possible.

And, to top it all off – an honest admission that SOME women can actually be vicious, hateful, and the type of persons any rational human being wants to avoid rather than get shackled to for life.  I promised a while back to circle the day on my calendar when I met a woman like you, rudegubmintwrkr, I guess I now need to hunt for my red marker.

The saddest thing about this whole mess is that it never needed to be a war.  Most of the men of my generation were more than ready to reshuffle the old roles, but that included the not-so-fun parts along with the CEO jobs.  The women I have met – slightly more than the number of men you went through, rudegubmintwrkr – have for the most part been like the women you describe, and like the first women who responded to the article.

The secret to power is really pretty simple – take responsibility.  Glad to see that you are willing to do so, and willing to look at the real problems instead of the blanket “blame men.”

08-30-2006 09:00 PM

Re: Honesty
shovel
Regular Contributor
shovel
See Shovel, this is exactly the response I was talking about. You practically avoided the question I posed, and instead took it as an opportunity to post a series vitriolic anti-male polemics based on old fashioned stereotypes – so much for claiming it’s men who live in the dark ages. What is that going to solve? Is that going to pursuade men into marrying career girls?

Hmm, how exactly did I avoid the question? I just wondered why anyone should “take the blame” for anything. I posted absolutely no anti-male polemics, just gathered bits and pieces from some of the more uneloquent posts here to support the fact that I have indeed seen some sterotyping (I was agreeing with you).

You also avoided the question: why not make the discussion about “career people” as opposed to women?

Just because I don’t have a provincial viewpoint on relationships doesn’t mean I “bash” or “hate” men. Such conclusions on your part are highly illogical.

08-31-2006 03:08 AM

Re: Honesty
CH
Contributor
CH
JWatkis: “As for men here making obnoxious posts, well, I don’t condone it but the overall attitude of many of the women here towards a man’s right to choose is appalling.” – Agreed. I have two brothers and neither of them would ever deserve to be spoken about in this fashion. Nor would my father who sacraficed 40 years of his life at the same company to put the three of us through college. I can’t even think of a man that I have dated that would deserve to be spoken about in this fashion (even the ones who were crazy enough to dump me. Maybe that’s why I take this so personally. I’ve chosen to date wonderful men who it just didn’t happen to work out with. If some of these women chose the wrong man and are bitter for it, it’s not the fault of the entire male population. If you keep your eyes open, it’s pretty easy to weed the good out from the bad.

08-31-2006 10:16 AM

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