Something that needs to be seriously addressed-For women


Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – Something that needs to be seriously addressed-For women

Something that needs to be seriously addressed-For women
LL
Contributor
LL

I haven’t responded to this board in a while, but I feel something needs to be said on my part.  This goes out to men and women, but I feel women should read this more than men.

There are many women here who post, saying that men hate women here and that it has distorted their view in the overall view of men.

Look, most, if not all, of the men who post here don’t hate you PERSONALLY.  A lot of the men here who post here are very, very angry because they hate the SYSTEM.  They hate being taken advantage of.  Some men here are tired of being ripped to shreds by the divorce or court system. Some men have had their children being taken away from them when they were good fathers and their children were turned against them by an abusive mother. Some men here are tired of being abused by a violent/vindictive girlfriend/spouse and seeing everyone side with her.  Many, many men are tired of women collectively not taking responsibility for their actions. Many more men look at women as their equals and are so sick and tired of women acting like little children and playing the victim card to get their way. Some men are tired of helping out women’s liberation for thirty years, changed themselves and when they asked to be heard, got booed for it.  A tremendous amount of men are tired of running into women who treat men as fourth-class citizens (Children————->Pets—–>them). A lot of men are just tired of being abused and treated like garbage when it comes to misandrist advertising and expecting it to “Suck it up and take it like a man” when they want their needs to be heard.  A lot of men are tired of being screamed at for being “rapists”, “sexists”, “idiots”, “mysogynists” when they didn’t do anything wrong or when they had the guts to speak out about how they are being treated.  A lot of men are tired of false rape accusations.  Many men are tired of being expected to perform these top-level or top dangerous jobs and get little sympathy or support in return. Men are simply tired of these double standards. A lot of men are also upset that an organization that is supposed to stand for “equality” turns their backs on men in this society, especially after many men helped fund and start the organization to battle misogyny and sexism.  Oh, the irony indeed.  A lot of men feel betrayed and when you feel betrayed, it is a powerful emotion.  A lot of men simply and honestly don’t care anymore.  Call them whatever you want, but shaming tacts don’t work on them anymore, Ladies.  Many men are tired of passively sitting while they are walked over and trampled upon.  I am reluctant to say, this is simply the new reality. Ladies, I hate to say this, but your actions are telling us to drop dead and, let me tell you, a lot of men are complying.

To all of the women who post here, I can’t apologize to what you are hearing because we are being brutally honest with you.  If we truly and positively hated you, then we would have lied to you and said you were the best thing in the world.  And then we would have coldly stabbed you in the back without remorse.  I’m not playing the violin here but I am stating the cold hard truth. If you can’t stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen. A lot of men here can only hold their anger in for so long and there is no other outlet to be able to do it.  We aren’t human punching bags, regardless of what you hear in our society. We don’t have a men’s center we can go to when we have something to discuss.  As men, we are expected to be quiet.  No one in our everyday lives wants to hear it.  We have feelings. And we aren’t going to suck up to people anymore. We are simply tired of the lace curtains and following political correctness. Once it reaches critical mass, then it is only a short time until something tips the balance and the situation explodes. When a guy wrote something about men on Forbes magazine, we supported him because he is a person who is going against the lace curtain.  He isn’t one of the upteenth people in our society saying men are foul beasts or should be placed in a burlac bag and beaten to a bloody pulp.  He isn’t a person stating that when a man cheats, he is a lying pig, but when a woman cheats, she wants some hot hot lovin.  He isn’t a person stating that “Men are rapists and that’s all they ever are” or “men are big brutes who enjoy raping women”.  He isn’t a person stating that women are relationship experts and social experts of the world, but then at the same time denounces the fact that men are better at math and science.  Are men better at math and science than women?  How the hell should I know, but having a double standard won’t help it. Above all, he isn’t a person saying we are absolute morons and he wasn’t stating women are absolute morons either.  And it isn’t a ‘conservative’ thing to support this article.  Regardless of your political party, men are saying “Well, if women don’t care about misandry, then why should we care about misogyny?” How would I know this.  I am a liberal, if it makes any **bleep** difference at all.

The message is clear: why should we help someone out that collectively hates our guts?

So, respond to what I am saying.  Tell me “Well, i’m not like that…” or try to prove me wrong, whatever.  It matters not.  To the women readers of this forum, I ask you this question.  Put yourselves in our shoes, because as a gender, men have been doing that for thirty years.  How would you feel if you were typing this message and knew that there were these types of double standards that work against you?

And I don’t want to you to say “Well, what about double standards against women…” No. For once, I actually want *you* to walk in our shoes.  Use role reversal for once in your lives.  There are some men who say women don’t use logic and are irrational.  Bull**bleep**.  It’s just that you don’t want to acknowledge the fact that, as a gender, you may have to change.  There are women who can perform high-high level math, so I fully believe that women use logic all the time. So, use role-reversal then, god damnit! Maybe then you will start to feel a hint of compassion for us.  And that’s what a lot of men want. Believe me, don’t believe me, I really could honestly care less at this point.  I don’t say it with a hint of sadness, but I do state it with tremendous resolve.

A lot of men on this board truly want equality.  I don’t know why you have the notion that we want to “enslave” you or you keep bringing up the topic of “oppression”.  Many men here are indeed very, very angry, but if women collectively woke up tomorrow and said that there was a double standard against men and they would be willing to ACTIVELY work with them to correct this, then I bet you would see many, if not all men change their attitudes about you rather quickly.  I also bet that many men here would work with you as well when it comes to your issues. But hey, if you want to keep saying that men are your number one enemy, then you are just hurting yourself in the end then, I guess.

Take my advice or don’t take it.  It is not up to us anymore.  All us men can do is react with the times and try to survive, as we have always tried to do.

If you want to even respond to this, then I ask you read this over several times and absorb everything I said.  Internalise it. Let the facts of what I am saying sink in.  Why would I lie to you when I have absolutely nothing to lose. Honestly.

I write this for the fact that there may actually be women out there who do want good things to happen.  Who want men and women to actually be equal in every sense of the word and doesn’t use the term ‘equality’ to gain power.  As far as I am concerned, I have not heard staunch feminists say they want true equality.  Well, SAY IT ALREADY OR COME ON OUT THAT YOU ARE ONLY ABUSIVE DEMAGOGUES AND USING THE NAME OF ‘EQUALITY’ FOR SELF-SERVING ABUSIVE PURPOSES!  And, to be quite honest, I haven’t heard that many women say it either.  All I hear is a “me, me, me” spoiled and entitlement attitude that I am used to hearing.  I haven’t given up on women yet as a gender, partly because I am young.  But, it doesn’t help my attitude that many women can’t see the male perspective either and go around demanding that the world give them everything when they do absolutely nothing except objectify themselves and demand people wait on them day and night because they have a **bleep**.  Ladies, if men couldn’t see your perspective, you wouldn’t have thousands of support groups, research agencies and foundations giving their money to women’s issues.

Men have been helping women and their issues for thirty years.  Isn’t it time women also help us?  Isn’t it time that we stop this stupid and petty fighting already???

Think about what I have said.  If you want to give a response, then think it over carefully before you give one.  You may think I am trying to hinder you, but when it all comes down to it, sometimes a critic can be your truest friend because they are telling you how to make the world a better place.  Whether you take that advice and actually use it is entirely up to you.  As Morpheus once told Neo in the matrix, “I can only show you the door, you have to step through it”.

-LL

09-02-2006 01:09 AM

Re: Something that needs to be seriously addressed-For women
Jet_Jaguar
Contributor
Jet_Jaguar

AMEN!

09-02-2006 02:47 AM

Re: Something that needs to be seriously addressed-For women
Doc_Savage
Regular Contributor
Doc_Savage

So many good points here I dont know what to comment on.

So I’ll just say great piece LL.

09-02-2006 06:49 AM

Re: Something that needs to be seriously addressed-For women
Mamonaku
Regular Contributor
Mamonaku
/Bow

Greatness!!

09-02-2006 09:10 AM

Re: Something that needs to be seriously addressed-For women
Cassius
Regular Contributor
Cassius
You got it right but in the end it will have to be men to do something about it. We can be angry at women for not beeing able to put themselfes in out shoer but we can not expect them to do something about the current status. What did women contribute to feminism ? They rallied and bitched where men told them to rally and bitch. If we want to see change we have to do it on our own.

09-02-2006 09:29 AM

Re: Something that needs to be seriously addressed-For women
3rdworldwm
Regular Contributor
3rdworldwm

LL, You have lots of good points here and I agree with you 100% men should not be discriminated against based on the sex comes to divorce, employment, education or any other areas. Women should not feel entitlement of favor because of her sex. I am all for you men to fight for your equal rights on the divorce court, which seems to me is the biggest complain in this board. Although I normally not active in any political movement because I am quite busy just being a signal mother working full time, I will give my moral support on this.

Just a little confused at this logic – I see most complains here by men are they are treated unfair in divorce court because the custody and support they have to pay. Now, is that because the system assuming the women is the party would spend more time with the kids and who do not have the financially ability to support themselves and the kids? Now, a career mother has less argument that she will be able to spend more time with the kids and can not support  herself, and you guys jump around supporting the article favor to marry non career women which is the root cause of all these unfairness?

Message Edited by 3rdworldwm on 09-02-2006 01:54 PM

09-02-2006 01:41 PM

Re: Something that needs to be seriously addressed-For women
Hujo
Contributor
Hujo
Great letter LL!

09-02-2006 02:23 PM

Re: Something that needs to be seriously addressed-For women
zacharias
Regular Contributor
zacharias

3rdworldwm wrote:

Just a little confused at this logic – I see most complains here by men are they are treated unfair in divorce court because the custody and support they have to pay. Now, is that because the system assuming the women is the party would spend more time with the kids and who do not have the financially ability to support themselves and the kids? Now, a career mother has less argument that she will be able to spend more time with the kids and can not support  herself, and you guys jump around supporting the article favor to marry non career women which is the root cause of all these unfairness?

Message Edited by 3rdworldwm on 09-02-200601:54 PM

1. No, she doesn’t. Any woman benefits from the old feminine mystique and the cultural bias that mothers are the best custodial parent.

2. As has been made clear by the responses by women, having a career makes a woman more likely to be even more demanding toward her husband. Perhaps some of these demands are not as realistic as the women see them as being. My experience has been that women are far more interested in having children than men are, so they are now demanding to have children, pissed off that that their husbands don’t do more childcare, and too tired to give anything at all to their husbands to make the marriage worth it. Plus, due to the paranoia over the tired old “you are only one step from being chained to the stove and kept barefoot and pregnant” a lot of women get quite huffy at the suggestion that they might do anything at all for their husbands which might be considered kind. For more background on this – look up “Bitch in the house” – it was written by a woman, and says basically the same things men here are saying. Since it is written by a woman, and most of the women here seem determined to argue with and refute everything any MAN says, maybe you will listen to a woman when she says it.

3. A lot of women want to “play” at a career for a few years, then when the get tired of it stick the man with all the responsibility of supporting the family. By this time, they have become accustomed to a 2-career lifestyle, and few men can earn enough extra income to keep that going. Thus, by comparison to “how things used to be” women become unhappy and negative and take out their frusration on their husbands.

4. If eventually they become unhappy enough and blame their husbands enough, the fact that they “gave up their career” figures significantly in the divorce settlement. They get compensated for this “loss of career” by being awarded an even greater share of the marital assets, and a lot of new case law even requires that the husband’s future earnings be considered an “asset” and when his earnings go up, he has to report this and her award goes up.

Now, since you have pretty well indicated that you are only here to argue with and refute anything any man says, I’m not going to bother to get into an argument with you over these issues. The facts are readily available on the web if you are sincerely interested in educating yourself and being fair. mensnewsdaily.com, and news.mensactivism.org would be good places to start.

Have a great day, and a great life.

09-02-2006 04:15 PM

Re: Something that needs to be seriously addressed-For women
IshWishDish
Regular Contributor
IshWishDish

Now, since you have pretty well indicated that you are only here to argue with and refute anything any man says, I’m not going to bother to get into an argument with you over these issues.

Because she asked a question, she’s “only here to argue with and refute anything any man says?” If you look over her posts, I think you’ll find 3rdworldwm is way more tolerant of the male perspective than most of us.  Your attitude doesn’t surprise me, but she especially didn’t deserve it.

The facts are readily available on the web if you are sincerely interested in educating yourself and being fair. mensnewsdaily.com, and news.mensactivism.org would be good places to start.

Yeah, those sound like great, really objective sites interested only in truth with no personal agenda at all. Folks, definitely go check them out, but remember they’re to be trusted on this topic about as much as you should trust Oscar Meyer to give you a fair and accurate assessment of which hot dog is the best value.

09-02-2006 05:38 PM

Re: Something that needs to be seriously addressed-For women
MartianBachelor
Regular Contributor
MartianBachelor
IshWishDish wrote: …Yeah, those sound like great, really objective sites interested only in truth with no personal agenda at all…

…when we all know they are the most nefarious and evil creations of the American Taliban ever! (sorry -couldn’t resist completing the sentence…)

It escapes me what “personal agendas” might have to do with either of those sites, or why that might be a Bad Thing even if they did.

Sheesh, MensActivism.com basically just points to original news stories which don’t get covered much elsewhere. And not a single thing on repealing the 19th Amendment. MND has many more opinion pieces, most of a distinctively conservative bent (which is most definitely not my cup of java) and a more general coverage of the news (even NPR).

But, hey, men had to invent the I-Net because women’s interests totally took over TV. And those two sites barely compare to the many more devoted to women’s issues. More freedom of the press is a Good Thing.

______________________________________________
“The loudest, most strident voices calling women weak, stupid, and incapable of competing in the world at large are the feminists.” – zed the zen priest

09-03-2006 04:12 AM

==============================================================================
Click on the board or message subject at the top to return.
Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – Something that needs to be seriously addressed-For women

Re: Something that needs to be seriously addressed-For women
IshWishDish
Regular Contributor
IshWishDish

LL, the tweakiness struck again, I guess, ’cause I posted a short but fairly gushy response on here last night as soon as I read your post, and now it’s gone. In a nutshell, I just said that I love it, and while there are things I could nit-pick, the spirit and intent of it all is great, and there are several parts I’m behind so enthusiastically that I actually bounced a little while I read it. You give me hope.

09-03-2006 04:16 AM

Re: Something that needs to be seriously addressed-For women
IshWishDish
Regular Contributor
IshWishDish

…when we all know they are the most nefarious and evil creations of the American Taliban ever! (sorry -couldn’t resist completing the sentence…)
That’s thoughtful of you, but if you look again, do you see that period there? After the word “all?” Yeah, that one. So see I actually had already completed that sentence, and I know you’ve got a lot to do, overthrowing the gynarchy and all, so I’d hate for you to feel like you need to take on the responsibility of putting words in my mouth. And while I have and will continue to be critical of many things proposed and asserted by the MRAs, I’ve certainly never been even remotely inclined to compare you all to the Taliban. What in my past statements would have given you the idea I’d feel that way? Or did you just assume that because I’m a woman and I disagree with your statements about feminism that you could automatically lump me in with all your preconceived notions about “feminazis”? ‘Cause if so, that’s really hypocritical.

There’s nothing wrong with having an agenda. If you’re presenting something as a pure-and-simple information source, though, it gets trickier. That’s when it turns into propaganda.

And that, my dear is why I pointed out the bias and then agreed that people should go check them out.

As for the thing about women’s interests taking over TV…

Y’know, a lot of you guys claim to be capitalists (I don’t know if you’re one or not), but you don’t seem to really understand how it works. TV content really isn’t decided by interest groups. It’s decided by big soulless corporations. They don’t base what they put on the air on politics. They base it on what generates the most massive truckloads of cash for them to rake in. And yes, TV content is predominantly female skewed (though not 100%), just as movies are predominantly male skewed (though not 100%), and as you say, the web is also mostly male skewed (though not 100%). That’s because that’s how those markets have found they make the most money.

09-03-2006 04:36 AM

Re: Something that needs to be seriously addressed-For women
3rdworldwm
Regular Contributor
3rdworldwm

IshWishDish wrote:
Now, since you have pretty well indicated that you are only here to argue with and refute anything any man says, I’m not going to bother to get into an argument with you over these issues.

Because she asked a question, she’s “only here to argue with and refute anything any man says?” If you look over her posts, I think you’ll find 3rdworldwm is way more tolerant of the male perspective than most of us.  Your attitude doesn’t surprise me, but she especially didn’t deserve it.

Thank you IshWishDish. I have indicated plenty of times that I am here because I am worried about my daughter’s future freedom of choice and her opportunities for pursuing her dreams as I would for my son if women is saying the same.

Message Edited by 3rdworldwm on 09-03-2006 02:54 PM

09-03-2006 02:48 PM

Re: Something that needs to be seriously addressed-For women
Freeyourself
Regular Contributor
Freeyourself
“Thank you IshWishDish. I have indicated plenty of times that I am here because I am worried about my daughter’s future freedom of choice and her opportunities for pursuing her dreams as I would for my son if women is saying the same.”

Your daughter will have freedom of choice this is how our society works. The problem the men have here is you seem to think we must conform to your way of thinking. Good luck with that one you will lose in the end as the true independent men head their own way. Columbus believed the world wasn’t flat and set out to find new discoveries. Today men are discovering again what freedom is and more will not marry in the future deciding to explore the world instead.

09-03-2006 05:07 PM

Re: Something that needs to be seriously addressed-For women
MartianBachelor
Regular Contributor
MartianBachelor

IshWishDish wrote: …you don’t seem to really understand how it works. TV content really isn’t decided by interest groups. It’s decided by big soulless corporations.

Ok, tell us how it works.
No, please don’t.

Just complete the circle: the corporations get their money from their women customers (80% of discretionary income in this country belongs to women) and it is thus this latter group which is incessantly pandered to by the TV show producers and stations who need to sell advertising to the corporations to put their shows on; the corporations (and others) pay their employees, many of whom are men, who give the money to their wives, ex’s, etc. to spend. Everybody in this loop falls under “women’s interests”.

Or, as I put it, men didn’t strip-mall the whole **bleep** country because we like to shop!!

______________________________________________
“The loudest, most strident voices calling women weak, stupid, and incapable of competing in the world at large are the feminists.” – zed the zen priest

09-03-2006 05:36 PM

Re: Something that needs to be seriously addressed-For women
Freeyourself
Regular Contributor
Freeyourself
“Y’know, a lot of you guys claim to be capitalists (I don’t know if you’re one or not), but you don’t seem to really understand how it works. TV content really isn’t decided by interest groups. It’s decided by big soulless corporations. They don’t base what they put on the air on politics. They base it on what generates the most massive truckloads of cash for them to rake in. And yes, TV content is predominantly female skewed (though not 100%), just as movies are predominantly male skewed (though not 100%), and as you say, the web is also mostly male skewed (though not 100%). That’s because that’s how those markets have found they make the most money.”

Well if they are capitalists then they suck. The TV companies ratings are dropping and movie attendance is going down. Both are suffering from male scarcity costing them revenue. Both TV and Movies today are geared mostly towards women. The internet is definately a male hideaway.

09-03-2006 06:59 PM

Re: Something that needs to be seriously addressed-For women
IshWishDish
Regular Contributor
IshWishDish
The internet is definately a male hideaway.

Yeah? How’s that goin’ for ya?

09-03-2006 07:11 PM

Re: Something that needs to be seriously addressed-For women
Freeyourself
Regular Contributor
Freeyourself

IshWishDish wrote:
The internet is definately a male hideaway.

Yeah? How’s that goin’ for ya?

Very well I can go places that don’t interest women plus it makes me money.

09-03-2006 07:17 PM

Re: Something that needs to be seriously addressed-For women
IshWishDish
Regular Contributor
IshWishDish

Movies today are geared mostly towards women.

Hmmn. Here’s the top grossing films of 2005 (in order):

Star Wars: Episode III – Revenge of the Sith
The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe
Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
War of the Worlds
King Kong
Wedding Crashers
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory
Batman Begins
Madagascar
Mr. & Mrs. Smith

If you think most (or actually, any) of those films are geared towards women, you have a much more openminded and progressive view of women than I gave you credit for!

09-03-2006 08:09 PM

Re: Something that needs to be seriously addressed-For women
rjmck
Contributor
rjmck

Actually, Iwishdish, Harry Poter has a huge female following– just got back from England, which was hosting a conference on Potter. Read an article in the Guardian– 80% of attendees were female, and many were into writing porno about Harry and other characters. Go figure.

09-03-2006 11:16 PM

==============================================================================
Click on the board or message subject at the top to return.

Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – Something that needs to be seriously addressed-For women

Re: Something that needs to be seriously addressed-For women
IshWishDish
Regular Contributor
IshWishDish

Actually, Iwishdish, Harry Poter has a huge female following– just got back from England, which was hosting a conference on Potter. Read an article in the Guardian– 80% of attendees were female, and many were into writing porno about Harry and other characters. Go figure.

I’ve heard it said, if it exists, there’s porn about it. <sigh>

Yes. That one movie on the list of ten (we’ll say two, since I imagine Mr. and Mrs. Smith, the #10 movie on the list had a noticeable female audience). So one in five of the top ten had a female audience (though one was actually a non-gender-focused children’s movie and one was an action movie meant to “cross over” into a partially female audience). This still hardly suggests that movies have been taken over by the chick-flick market.

For the record, there were several of these movies (Harry Potter being one of them) I was in line for on opening night, but I’m wierd that way.

09-04-2006 12:45 AM

Re: Something that needs to be seriously addressed-For women
MartianBachelor
Regular Contributor
MartianBachelor
Raises hand…

I think it needs to be pointed out in this regard (which frankly has little if anything to do with the original post in the thread) that the biggest movie of all time, Gone With the Wind, is in the female-porn genre.

Few men have ever seen it.

______________________________________________
“The loudest, most strident voices calling women weak, stupid, and incapable of competing in the world at large are the feminists.” – zed the zen priest

09-04-2006 12:27 PM

==============================================================================
Click on the board or message subject at the top to return.

Advertisements
%d bloggers like this: