Time to end the debate


Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – Time to end the debate

Time to end the debate
rjmck
Contributor
rjmck

Well, it’s about time to put this entire debate to bed. It’s been going on for several days now, and everyone is about talked out. I think that most of the threads are now either repetitive or off topic. From what I can see, most of the females have left the building, having had their butts handed to them on a platter a long time ago. Either that, or they just got tired of dealing with a lot of misogynistic morons who think they are being clever when they call women “cupcake”. Quite frankly, even as a man who has been a critic of feminism for 20 years, I found many of the males contributing to this discussion to have a mental age of about 11. And many of the females validated the worst stereotypes of misandrist feminists. Not much to be proud of on either side, I’d say. But here are a few parting observations:

1. It’s pretty clear that there’s a male marriage strike on. The imnplications of this are profound. Let’s see if the media pick up this this any time soon, as it’s a phenomena driven by male issues, not female. Don’t hold your breath.

2. Many men still don’t get that feminist principles are all about equality. On those grounds, it deserves respect, much more that it got on these posts.

3. Most women don’t get that the practice of feminism is the opposite of the principles. This is the source of much male anger. Nor does it do any good to appeal to feminist principles of equality when attempting to rationalize its hypocrisy. Women take note. Your sexism is now an issue.

4. Many men feel that they ought to marry foreign women and scorn American ones. This won’t fix the real problem, which is American cultural and legal attitudes towards men.

5. Many women seem to feel that they have a right to a marriage and a career. What they don’t seem to realize is that under present conditions, it’s either marriage or a career.

6. Regardless of the issue of career women and marriage, many American men are very, very, very angry about the way they are treated by their current culture. And American women are going to have to learn how to make amends for their feminist sisters, whether they like it or not, if they want men back in their lives on a full-time basis.

Any other thoughts?

08-31-2006 02:46 AM

Re: Time to end the debate
Happy_Bullet
Regular Contributor
Happy_Bullet

What you wrote was quite good..

2. Many men still don’t get that feminist principles are all about equality. On those grounds, it deserves respect, much more that it got on these posts.

Not sure about this one, because I suppose it depends on how you define “feminist principles”. I believe I know what you mean though, Warren Farrel (Author of The Myth of Male Power for those who don’t know), was president of his local NOW chapter twice before he realised feminism had not gone the way promised. I myself volunteered at Amnesty International for 1 1/2 years before becoming sick of the human rights violations they CAUSED with their Stop Violence Against Women campaign and the widespread misandry of the female staff. I joined believing in the basics of feminism and after discovering what it was all about left disgusted with the organisation and myself for helping them.

4. Many men feel that they ought to marry foreign women and scorn American ones. This won’t fix the real problem, which is American cultural and legal attitudes towards men.

People are going to disagree with this, so I’ll agree with it in advance. This is the same case with “housewives”, choosing one of them won’t fix the problem either. I’ll also add that the problem is not limited to America, but to the entire western world.

I do have a couple of things to add. The first is that men are going to need to show some solidarity if we are going to resolve this stuff in our societies. I don’t blame some of the male posters here for being angry. I would like to see what results from this be something egalitarian, but for the time being we are fighting a remorseless behemoth and if people get a little angry fighting it, I’m not going to take exception to it at this time. I’ll note that when one fights monsters they should take care not to become one, but sticking together is more important at the current time IMO.

With that said, I would like us to organise a meeting place for further discussions.

Myself, I was quite impressed with the intelligence, knowledge, articulacy and in some cases humour of almost all the male posters here and would like to continue the discussion on other matters in future. The other reason for organising a meeting place is EDUCATION. It is true that the media will not give attention to men’s issues, so I imagine a lot of the females reading this were quite surprised at the amount of support Noer’s article received.

This also means men are not properly EDUCATED in what can be good or bad for them. It is a legal minefield out there at the moment, not just in terms of marriage, but in terms of many other interactions with women. Simply many men do not know about legislation that has been passed which they can unwittingly stumble into and face violation of their human rights, very severe in some cases. My main concern at the moment is preventing human rights violations against men and education will aid this. I would recommend:
http://antimisandry.com/vbdr/forum/

or

http://www.standyourground.com/forum/

I’m registered at both. I imagine some of the posters here already are as well. Let’s agree on this.

Men have standards. Women will be compared. DEAL WITH IT.

08-31-2006 04:14 AM

Re: Time to end the debate
dflynn5656
Contributor
dflynn5656
You said –

2. Many men still don’t get that feminist principles are all about equality. On those grounds, it deserves respect, much more that it got on these posts.

Gosh this interpretation is unfortunate. Feminist principles aren’t for women OR men. Neither bennefits from this power grab that doesn’t even help children. It does help lawyers…

It preverts God’s design and the roles of both sexes by suggesting that any role other than wife and mother is a “better” option. As though money mattered more than people.

This is utter nonsense – and perhaps societies Logical minds detect the fault before it’s Emotional ones.

Do I even need to apply sexes to those two groups?

David

08-31-2006 04:19 AM

Re: Time to end the debate
MartianBachelor
Regular Contributor
MartianBachelor
I’ll take issue with #2 also. All societies are feminacentric, on evolutionary grounds which are quite solid and easy to understand. Most of feminism was about society having even more feminacentrism. That is, it took an already present tendency for everyone to care much more about women’s concerns than men’s concerns and cranked it up to an extreme. But once you reach the saturation point, then what?

The problem is that feminacentrism evolved in societies where base survival was pretty much the main issue of daily life. Female reproductive power was necessarily a central concern, as it was a key link in the system and needed to be safeguarded and nurtured.

But being able to reproduce the clan or tribe is no longer much of a problem, at least not in the first world. Male science tackled most of the problems and solved them. Life expectancies increased some 50% in the 20th century. The net result is that female reproductive power is much less needed now than it was just a few decades or centuries ago. In China it’s now a distinct problem not an asset.

This means the basis for feminacentrism and special privileges for women has evaporated, but our brains and cultures can’t evolve fast enough to keep up with the change. The big problems the world faces now are of an entirely different sort. Feminacentrism may even be a wasteful distraction from the real work which needs to be done. Women won’t do this work. If feminism is not now just plain irrelevant, because female reproduction is no longer needed except at a low level, it’s a mere annoyance which still pops up from time to time and has to be dealt with.

______________________________________________
“The loudest, most strident voices calling women weak, stupid, and incapable of competing in the world at large are the feminists.” – zed the zen priest

08-31-2006 06:15 AM

Re: Time to end the debate
Mamonaku
Regular Contributor
Mamonaku
During this debate,

I have found that the Feminists were devoted to their cause, and well schooled in their theory.

Unfortunately for all of us, the history and experience of Feminism has shown that it, like Communism and Socialism, Feminism’s kissing cousins, is terribly flawed, and doomed to failure.

I think at long last, Men have found their voice.

“Not just No, Hell NO!”

At long last, as we men have let all this Misandry go on for far too long.

We have figurative barbarians at the gate Ladies and Gentlemen.

Briefly,
http://www.albertmohler.com/commentary_read.php?cdate=2006-03-01

“Yet, for more than a generation now, well-fed, healthy, peaceful populations around the world have been producing too few children to avoid population decline. That is true even though dramatic improvements in infant and child mortality mean that far fewer children are needed today (only about 2.1 per woman in modern societies) to avoid population loss. Birthrates are falling far below replacement levels in one country after the next–from China, Japan, Singapore, and South Korea, to Canada, the Caribbean, all of Europe, Russia, and even parts of the Middle East.”

Throughout human history, a persistent fall in birthrates has served as a harbinger of cultural decline and a warning of cultural collapse. The reasons for this are many, but center in the fact that the cause of falling birthrates is often a loss of social cohesion and confidence and the effect of falling reproduction rates is a decline in economic prosperity and erosion of the social structure.

Put simply, a significant fall in birthrates means that, in the next generation, there will be fewer workers, parents, consumers, and contributors to the common welfare. As societies age, a greater percentage of the population tends toward the older end of the age spectrum–representing greater dependency and less economic contribution…

To some extent, the statistics tell the story. Almost twenty percent of women born in the late 1950s are nearing the end of their reproductive lives without ever having had children. Longman’s assessment is blunt: “The greatly expanded childless segment of contemporary society, whose members are drawn disproportionately from the feminist and countercultural movements of the 1960s and 70s, will have no genetic legacy.”

Beyond this, the falling birthrate contributes to many other social ills. “Falling fertility is also responsible for many financial and economic problems that dominate today’s headlines,” Longman asserts. “The long-term financing of social security schemes, private pension plans, and health-care systems has little to do with people living longer. . . . Instead, the falling ratio of workers to retirees is overwhelmingly caused by workers who were never born.”

The effects within the society are psychological as well as demographic, political, and financial. As Longman understands, declining birthrates can also affect what he calls “national temperament.” He attributes the fact that the American voting population has become more conservative in recent years to anxiety over falling birthrates. Beyond this, we must now add the fact that millions of voters, who would have been raised by more liberal parents, were simply never born…”

Not only that, my dear Feminists, you KNOW in your heart of hearts that this is not the way you really want. Your movement is losing steam. For example:

http://www.pacificresearch.org/pub/con/2006/con_06-29-06.html

Choice Feminism and the Mommy Wars
by Sally Pipes, President and CEO

“… has been observing a development often covered by the Contrarian: professional women of intelligence and accomplishment who find there is more to life than long hours at a law firm and decide they want to be stay-at-home mothers. Such women exemplify a “choice feminism,” which, as Yeager notes, now has its own magazine.

Total 180! is “the magazine for the professional woman, turned stay-at-home mom.” Founded by three California women, the publication gives advice to a family’s “Chief Household Officer.” These CHOs find another reality the Contrarian has often noted: raising children is the most difficult and demanding task a woman can undertake. Giving assignments to high-powered colleagues in the office, some find, is not as difficult as managing a defiant child.

Yeager herself is a full-time working mother with a full-time working husband and a daughter in school. That was her choice, of course, but she shows some uneasiness with the concept of choice feminism. As Yeager notes, so does the one who takes credit for coining the phrase.

Linda R. Hirshman, a retired Brandeis professor, tracked dozens of accomplished women who married in 1996. Eight years later, of the 30 who had children, only five were working full time and only half were working at all. This counted as “feminism” as long as it was what the woman chose. On the other hand, Hirshman worried that Betty Friedan-style feminism had lost its edge….”

Feminist Career women will simply go the way of the Dinosaur. That’s a fact. There is no future in your MBA ladies.

I sincerly hope, if you unmarried Feminist Career gals want to return back to Men’s good graces before its truly too late, abandon this path, and do what it is that you truly want to be:

Feminine.

I pray that our society can withstand the bitter Gender Warfare we are all engaged in.

Message Edited by Mamonaku on 08-31-2006 07:50 AM

08-31-2006 07:25 AM

Re: Time to end the debate
Happy_Bullet
Regular Contributor
Happy_Bullet

Throughout human history, a persistent fall in birthrates has served as a harbinger of cultural decline and a warning of cultural collapse.

Read: Decline of Rome.
Read: Decline of the Byzantine Empire after that.
Read: Decline of the Ottoman Empire after that.

It is also accompanied by greater government control and higher taxes… uh oh…

I pray that our society can withstand the bitter Gender Warfare we are all engaged in.

Well, either it will, or we’ll be silently overrun by other cultures that do reproduce, like in Rome.

I remember someone saying that a tribe that oppresses women could not survive as if they fought with another tribe they would be fighting the other tribe and their own women.

I find it ironic that Islam apparently oppresses the **bleep** out of women, but their birth rates are just fine and it’s *our* women that are fighting us. Go figure that one out.

Men have standards. Women will be compared. DEAL WITH IT.

08-31-2006 07:40 AM

Re: Time to end the debate
Yikes
Visitor
Yikes

Don’t guys now realize that “feminism” and women in the workplace don’t go hand in hand. A feminist doesn’t neccessarily translate into a successful career woman. In fact I wouldn’t consider myself a feminist. The only reason the perception is that many men are very angry about the changing roles of women is that they have a tendency still to be able to be louder than we are and to hold the power that we lack to voice our very valuable opinions regarding the changing role of women.

Equality in North America is albeit a little shaky at times, it is supposed to be here. We are now CEO’s and VP’s and Dr’s and Lawyers and while there is still evidence that we aren’t paid as much as men that is changing fast. Either someone re-defines the role of a woman to be isolated to the home and the keeper of all household duties to date back to the 40’s or 50’s or men have to change their perceptions of the fact that we have alot on our plates now. That isn’t because we asked for it, but because we deserved to have the right and the freedom to make those choices, and we are certainly capable of contributing to the extent neccessary and have become critical to any North American co. This debate does address that men would like our rise to equality to stop, and perhaps they are leveraging their freedom to choose to elect not to marry or commit to a woman with a career that could be considered a threat to them. Either or the debate will continue long after this article, and we will be forced to navigate the halls with these men, and in some cases sleep with them, and that is unfortunate. We support them by having their babies, cleaning their houses and cooking their dinners while contributing to the family bank account, why is it so difficult still for men to accept that we don’t have a choice in many instances and when it really comes right down to it with equality we had to take more on, we have done it and we do it well. Women deserve recognition and support, not the ongoing attempts to sabotage us. I guess men can now hold that one last thing over our heads when it really comes right down to it, marriage. Marriage does start with love, that doesn’t discriminate, so why do we keep doing that.

We all got here because a terrible article that was truly damaging to the role of women and cast a very broad net about things that the majority of women that I know that are successful wouldn’t even consider, like having affairs. Yes there are some but they are the exception. It was nasty and offended every woman that read it, and if this was a man’s issue that attacked men in the way that women were attacked it would have appeared on the front page of USA Today the next day and someone likely would have been fired. That is the difference in the way that these things are handled. We still can’t squash those statements, but stick with us cause in another few years or so we will be able to, the fear might just be that the those that cling to the possibility that they can still exercise power over women know that. Power = control and a man’s ability to literally marry for the sake of entering into a subserviant relationship I have a feeling that that is really what this about. Money = power, and with a successful career you take a little bit of that power away don’t you….just a little bit of food for thought.

08-31-2006 08:13 AM

Re: Time to end the debate
MartianBachelor
Regular Contributor
MartianBachelor
Sorry, I think there are way more than enough people on the planet already, so a gradual long-term population decline would be a Good Thing imo — if we could engineer it so it happened equally everywhere all over the globe at the same time so countries like ours don’t just get over-run by third world surpluses. With the history you cite in our hands we can be prepared for the consequences.

The history of the collapse of agricultural based civilizations (which we all are at some level) due to climate change is something we should be paying much more attention to. Our own actions may have already sealed our fate, but there’s still time to do something before nature imposes a drastic and sudden population decline on us all.

Hey, wasn’t all our adolescent male dreams to make sex entirely recreational rather procreational?

Message Edited by MartianBachelor on 08-31-2006 06:25 AM

______________________________________________
“The loudest, most strident voices calling women weak, stupid, and incapable of competing in the world at large are the feminists.” – zed the zen priest

08-31-2006 08:17 AM

Re: Time to end the debate
Democles
Regular Contributor
Democles

Rjmck, All;

Those are excellent points. There is something more fundamental though, something we need to address and understand at our individual level. The fundamental point is this: What is our personal identity and how it relates to others.

What is it to be male?

What is it to be female?

You state the principles of feminism are about equality. I ask equality to what?

Yes, all of us as individuals have a right to exist, yet not all of us are created with equal abilities. As a man, I am hard press to make it possible to host a child in my body and bring it forth to life. It is strange how feminists seem to deny this fact and gift in women as of no consequence.

I have no problem with women in the work place; I have no problem with being led by a woman. I do have a problem when a woman expects special treatment and accommodation for her gender where men are better suited for the circumstances. Please note that I have never claimed that women are intellectually inferior to men, I truly believe that women are intellectually equal and capable as men. It is my opinion, from personal experience, that feminists think that women are intellectually superior to men and therefore should enjoy higher benefits without taking responsibility of the costs and risks attributed to those higher benefits.

My recommendation is this: Become aware of your rights, duties and responsibilities as an individual, treat others with dignity and respect; but beware that others, be it male or female, are willing to entertain and seek to subjugate you, regardless of your personal opinion against it.

08-31-2006 09:24 AM

Re: Time to end the debate
moneyneversleep
Regular Contributor
moneyneversleep

Women are paid what they are worth.  EOS.  The article merely points out the disadvantage of marrying a career woman due to the likelihood of divorce and that you will be raising latchkey children.  I know of 1 man that is a house husband.  He is a great guy, but I don’t envy him.  He made an informed choice and I respect that.  Why is that his wife is so hideous?  Can’t figure that one out.

08-31-2006 10:32 AM

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Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – Time to end the debate

Re: Time to end the debate
Kristilyn3
Contributor
Kristilyn3

it’s very convenient for men to want to quelch this femisnistic arguement. It doesn’t serve them well. My father now realizes he had it made! My mom was stay at home – she did EVERYTHING around the house and raised us kids and worked part times jobs…  my dad worked at the office full time, came home and relaxed.

If men were willing to pitch in their half of the workload on the home front and with the kids, I betcha many more marriages would last with career women…

but men really don’t want that extra responsibility – much easier to shirk it and blame feminism for the fall of society!!!

08-31-2006 03:51 PM

Re: Time to end the debate
rjmck
Contributor
rjmck

Sorry Kristylyn3, but you don’t get it. Men aren’t blaming feminism for the fall of society– only for the destruction of male-female relationships. I happen to think that women have every right to be in the workforce, that they can make an equal and valuable contribution. But time and again man posters (why is it, by the way, that females are always called “women”, as in “women judges” but men are always called “males” as if they were animals? Just a passing point.) have made the point that they are no longer interested in marrying women because the marriage laws are inequitable, not because they have an issue with women in the workforce. Some of the posters are taking the tack that women are inferior, that they are not as valuable, etc. Nonsense. This issue comes down to whether men and women are being treated equally. Not once have the female posters here actually tried to prove that divorce is fair to men. Until they do, the mens’ argument stands.
Ladies, give use fair treatment, show us some respect, stop your sexist diatribes against men– or be prepared to live lives alone. The male marriage strike is a growing social phenomenon. It will not stop until men are treated as equals in this culture. But there is no evidence– none– that feminists actually believe in equality for people regardless of gender. And that’s why feminism is a problem for both genders.

08-31-2006 04:20 PM

Re: Time to end the debate
toadman
Regular Contributor
toadman

“It will not stop until men are treated as equals in this culture.” Now if that isn’t ironic I have no idea what is.

08-31-2006 05:37 PM

Re: Time to end the debate
yohan
Contributor
yohan

“It will not stop until men are treated as equals in this culture.” Now if that isn’t ironic I have no idea what is.

——————————————-

It is not ironic.
In fact, in many situations in daily life in the USA, men are considered 2nd class, while women enjoy remarkable privileges.

09-05-2006 06:09 AM

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