What Needs To Happen

Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – What Needs To Happen

What Needs To Happen

I get a lot of messages from people.  Either over the internet or people who are interested in gender issues.  The question that I see come up most often is “What needs to happen”?  If anti-feminists see the feminist organization as being ineffective overall at this point in time, what needs to be done to achieve what we can call ‘true equality’.

First, I have to say that whether you are an active feminist, a casual feminist, a casual MRA, an active MRA or are totally ambivalent on the topic but would like to know more, I can’t personally tell you what to think.  I am not going to force you to believe what I believe in.  The only thing that I can tell everyone here who is interested in being a feminist or an MRA is to get an education.  Read books.  Gather information on your own.  And keep an open mind. That’s why I really feel that learning this type of stuff on college campuses is not a good way to do it.  Many teachers just show you one side of the argument and that is it.  My advice to everyone here is to read feminist books if they are interested, but also read MRA books also.  Ones that I do highly recommend are written by moderates such as Warren Farrell, Christina Hoff Sommers and Thomas B. James.  There are plenty of other authors out there to choose from, but I leave the researching up to you.  The organization is made up of many people who have different beliefs, even though we don’t have a unifying platform and a mainstream outlet like feminism does.

My Beliefs: I believe that the only way to achieve full equality between men and women is for both of them to join forces.  That is why I am currently against only a women’s movement.  The organization alienates the genders.  It doesn’t bring them together; it diverges them apart.  What should we do?  Well, if feminism as an organization is to splintered to do anything in regard to improving the situation of men, then men must go their own way and create an organization that will look out for them.  This organization would work to correct our current imbalance in the system.  Do I believe this should be a long term solution?  ABSOLUTELY NOT. Why so?  Because if it was a long term solution, then we would get the same result as we did with the women’s liberation movement.  The organization would be abused, worn out and hijacked by radicals who would not believe in true equality.  This is what happened to the face of feminism and we cannot make the same mistake with feminism.  As far as any movements go, the baby is the ideal and the bathwater is the run-off, the excess of what happens over time when something is unopposed.
What do I feel should happen?  I feel that men need to get together and create a new movement.  I feel this is happening, but it needs to reach the mainstream and be nationally recognized.  The internet is the stepping stone but sooner or later, the men’s movement needs to link up with the real world if it is going to have any success.  Once that happens, then the movement needs to remember what its objectives are.  We need to make sure to stabilize the situation.  We need our main rights to be brought back until we reach the state where men and women are COMPLETELY equal.  Once this happens, I see no use of a men’s movement OR a women’s movement.  As Warren Farrell has stated, there needs to be a gender transition movemrnt that would be the vanguard of BOTH men’s and women’s rights.  Feminism and the MRA movement would, therefore, cease to exist and fade into obscurity.  How long will this take?  I don’t know, but I feel this should be the main objective of both genders.

So, without further adieu, I am going to lay them all out right here, no bullsh*t.  No arguing about whether if someone is right or someone is wrong.  Here is what I truly believe needs to happen in order to stabilize the pendulum.  Here is what I believe the MRA movement needs to work towards:

1)The main goal of the MRA movement would be to COMPLETELY eliminate all forms of misandry in the mainstream.  Individually, this will never happen and it would be foolishly to undertake the notion that it could happen, but businesses, insitutions, media outlets and other places that cater to the public eye should not show misadry in any of their products, ideas, messages, etc.

2)The MRA movement should work with policy makers and leaders to set up an office of Men’s health.  Then we will be able to focus on the neglected fields of men’s Health that are getting very little if any funding.  There are thirty four fields of men’s health that are being neglected and several of the biggest ones that would need to be looked at are suicide, a men’s birth control pill and austism.

3)While there are women’s centers and women support systems, there is very little for men.  With support of the movement, there will also be Men’s centers and men’s shelters for men.  While it may not suit the same purposes that women shelters do for women, a men’s center would be there for giving counseling and advice for men who are going through a rocky relationship, suffering through financial crisis or is trying to get out of an abusive relationship.  I believe that if there were men’s centers where men can feel comfortable expressing himself, then the suicide rates would be much lower.

4)When it comes to Women studies, the MRA movement can do one of two things.  They can either protest women studies because of its biased teachings or the movement can start a men’s studies program to give people a new outlook on masculinity.  If the moment should ever attempt this, I will warn not to liken the class out of a women studies class, where the men’s program would bash and denigrate women.  This is not the equality I have in mind.  Instead, they should show how masculinity has helped the human race survive and shouldn’t only be shown in a negative light.  They should teach BOTH genders on how to cooperate with each other and show the benefits and shortcomings of both genders in an UNBIASED AND BENEFICIAL manner.  What’s the best thing that could happen?  A gender studies program is formed that shows both genders in a good and beneficial way.  The program would recognize that both genders have shortcomings.  The majorty of rapists are men but rapists are a SLIM MINORITY. It isn’t a MALE PHENOMENA AS WOMEN STUDIES SUGGESTS.  IT IS A CRIMINAL ACT, NOT A MALE ACT! The majority of child abusers are women, but like rapists, there are a slim minority of mothers who perform this act.

5)When it comes to the courtroom, the rules of fairness and inpartiality should be FULLY enforced.  The 12-female only defenses should be immediately declared unconstitutional and both genders should be seen and viewed in an equal manner.  One gender should not be looked upon more leniently than the other.  Violent women should not be able to get treatment, whereas a man should get a jail sentence.  Either both genders get the same punishment for the same magntitude of the crime or both get treatment or rehabilitation instead.  Judges should take careful note not to lighten the sentence when a woman commits a crime because of her attration level or sexual appeal.  In the eyes of the courtroom,  A WOMAN WILL BE SEEN AS AN ADULT WHO CAN FULLY TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR HER ACTIONS.  In the courtroom,  MAN’S WORD DOES NOT HAVE LESSER VALUE THAN A WOMAN’S WORD. They are equal! The MRA movement will also fight jail rape and will seek ways to minimize this happening.

6)When it comes to divorce, the elements of a no-fault divorce and a fault divorce should be combined into a ‘mixed’ divorce.  What does this mean?  If a man and a woman decide to have a divorce, both will be entitled for it regardless of the circumstances involved.  If one person wants a divorce but the other one doesn’t, this will be harder to obtain-especially if children are involved.  There are several reasons for this.  The first reason is to protect the child’s well being.  A child who grows up with only one parents runs a much greater risk of dropping out of school and engaging in violent, antisocial (and deviantly sexual) behavior.  This is regardless of the gender.  The next reason is to protect a person’s financial support and background.  If there is no children involved, a divorce should be discouraged if it is not mutual because there are cases where one person will lose everything in a divorce.  Unless if there is abuse or infidelity, the odds of someone getting a divorce under this system would be much less.  What is the meaning behind this?  People should be taught that a MARRIAGE IS A BIG DECISION TO MAKE!!!  MARRIAGE IS LIKE SIGNING A CONTRACT.  PEOPLE SHOULD BE FULLY PREPARED OF WHAT TO EXPECT IN A MARRIAGE BEFORE THEY ENTER INTO IT! This type of system gives a couple wiggleroom to have a divorce but AT THE SAME TIME, TELLS THEM THEY MUST COMMUNICATE WITH EACH OTHER IF THE MARRIAGE IS GOING TO WORK!!! If you don’t know what to expect and you haven’t put your FULL thought into it and can’t communicate your problems with your partner, then DON’T GET MARRIED!  Divorce should be available, but you will be discouraged to make it through financial gain or if you are ‘bored’.  This is applied to both genders.

7)Both genders should be taught that they have to take care of themselves and should have responsibilities for their actions.  This doesn’t mean they can’t ask for help, but no one should be conditioned or taught to manipulate other people to get their way either (women crying or entitlement attitude comes to mind).  Women using ‘the victim card’ to get their way would only hurt them.  The MRA movement should create outreach programs that tell women to EMPOWER themselves, instead of VICTIMIZING themselves.

8)When it comes to reproduction, a man would not have to pay child support and alimony when he has been lied to and deceived by his significant other.  Paternity fraud would be exposed to the mainstream and funding would be used to prevent it.  A birth control pill will also be available for men.  Essentially, the movement would create an environment where BOTH genders would have options. Don’t worry ladies, Roe V. Wade won’t be overturned.  If a woman has a right to her boday, then a man should have a right to his.

9)When it comes to dating, the notion of what to expect would be based on personality, rather than gender roles.  When it comes to relationships BOTH SHOULD BE ENCOURAGED TO PURSUE WHEN THEY WANT TO DATE SOMEONE.  Women and men should have both expectancy and options.  The movement, however, should tell women that they need to initiate things if they want something to happen instead of waiting around.  Women will be able to experience rejection and more importantly, would STRIVE FOR SOMETHING MORE AGGRESSIVELY AT WORK WHERE MONEY IS INVOLVED!  One example would be getting a raise or promotion.  Men will also have to go through the experience of rejecting someone on a more periodic basis.  Women would also assume to take on responsibilities (half the time) when the check comes, especially if they are working.

10)When it comes to the workplace, the code of conduct and the dress code should be followed and ENFORCED.  If a woman breaks the dress code and wears something improper, then she will be laid off.  Ladies, one word of advice.  If you wear something that borders on breaking the dress code (questionable) and then you become annoyed that the wrong guy approaches you, then that is SEXUAL HARRASSMENT on your part.  It is also sexual harrassment when you cry and use your body to gain favors. Sexual politics should not be permitted on the job. If you interfere with a guy who is working and tells you to go away but you decide to keep bothering him even after repeated attemps to be left alone, then that is STALKING.  As with the courtroom, the workplace should not label stalking and sexual harrassment as something that only men do.  And since women see sexual harrassment in their terms, men have to see it in their terms as well.

11)When it comes to domestic violence, the myth that men are only violent should be dispelled.  The movement should show that the perpetrators (not the injuries) of violence is EQUAL in scope between men and women.  The sterotype that only women are victims need to be dismantled and gotten rid of. There should be more outreach centers for men who are domestic violence victims.  Law enforcement officials should also be trained to know what questions to ask to know what REALLY went on (and not rely on pre-conceived stereotypes).

12)When it comes to the armed forces and a draft, women should be expected to serve just as men do as well. The strongest women should fight in combat and be placed in women-only regiments.  The other women who are drafted would work with other men in specialized divisions that may not be in the frontline but would perform other duties.  Overall, enrollment should not be male only.  Women will also need to assume the same level of responsibility men have as well.

13)I apologize for the tone in my last section.  When it comes to rape, the victims of it are often psychologically scarred and most often have a sense of deep shame and fear after the incident.  My deepest sympathies go out to the real victims of rape.  On a personal note, I personally know someone who was raped (the real definition and not the feminist one), so I know what the implications and the after effects of it are.  However, with that being said, knowing full well what the definition of rape is and the cirumstances of what the uncorrupted definition is, there is hysteria on this subject that has been taught in our society.  The 1 out of 4 myth was a study based on erroneous statistics and ‘scientific’ findings.  It is a fallacy and that is how the movement should view it.  As far as I am concerned, it does nothing but breed hatred for the male gender and tells women that this is what men are.  This cannot be farther from the truth.  When it comes to rape, the organization has to make the definition clear.  Rape is when a person is unable to resist or is defenseless and a person violates them against their consent (what they use can be anything).  If you compare this to the definition that feminists hold, most women don’t even know they have been raped!  And many of them are still dating their rapist! If a woman is pinned down, tells the person to f*ck off ( a “no” can be effective) and is penetrated, then that is rape.  If a woman is alseep and a person molests her, then that is rape.  What isn’t rape?  If a woman and a guy hook up and throughout the night she is saying “Yes, no, yes, no yes, no, yes…”.  Sorry honey, but you shouldn’t even be seeing him to begin with.  If a woman regrets having sex a few days later, this is not rape.  When the time came for intercourse, you essentially entered into a contract with him by consenting.  By changing your mind, you don’t need 4 years of rape counseling.  You need ASSERTIVE TRAINING! If a woman goes to a party, gets wasted and when a guy approaches her, she consents to have sex and a few days later finds out about it through a friend, this is not rape.  Some people need to make sure what their limit is before they drink.  And if they don’t know, to have a friend with them.  Some women need to know what it means to have responsibility.  If you say “yes”, you cannot change your mind later based on the feelings you have after the fact.  What about the gray areas?  There are plenty of them.  There comes a time where there are plenty of gray areas that are left up to the party members involved.  Feminists say that rapists are normal average guys, but I vehemently disagree with that.  Why? Because rape is a deviant crime and most men are not deviant individuals. Most of the time, a woman believes she was raped because it was a matter of miscommunication and not a violation of her body.  Our movement needs to stress the importance of communication and not jumping to conclusions and supporting the hysteria.

These are the main points of what the men’s movement should focus on.  To every woman reader here, do you notice how I never said the movement should curtail or restrict the rights you have. While the main reason for this organization is to help men and their issues, women must realize that this organization is going to help your issues as well.  It just approaches the situation differently and loves you in a different way.  Women will lose collectively if they are treated as victims. They will, therefore, be treated as children and will be hurt in the long run socially, economically and politically. Women will lose if false rape accusations are made because the real victims of rape suffer when they are not believed. Women will lose if their loved one if affected by the double standards that are against men in this society.

This is a battle that both genders need to fight.  If that doesn’t happen, then both genders will lose.


09-02-2006 06:21 PM

Re: What Needs To Happen
Regular Contributor

I Love it LL. A breath of reason and a real striving effort to initiate changes that would be more than beneficial to everyone. True equlity at its finest. Probably something striven for initially before feminism (the extreme versions) went so wrong.

Edited for spelling

Message Edited by minx12 on 09-02-2006 03:39 PM

09-02-2006 06:37 PM

Re: What Needs To Happen

Nice work.  About six acts in all, we have the Equal Employment Opportunity Act, Fair Housing Act, Equal Credit Opportunity Act, all of which have touched upon these issues.  This looks like the basis of a good amendment.

Those genuinely interested in equal rights for all will be on board.  Those who never wanted to give women equal rights in the first place will be against it because they’re not about equality – they want dictatorship and control.  Women who want to shirk responsibility will be against it, preferring to continue hiding behind the “woman card” when convenient.   It’s truly a thoughtful fresh approach and logical intelligent people will be on board.

09-02-2006 07:11 PM

Re: What Needs To Happen
Regular Contributor

Wonderful post, LL. There are a very few things I have some disagreements with (mostly nit-picky), but I’m comfortable with the spirit and intent of pretty much all of it. There are even a few parts I’m willing to get up off my butt and march for right now.

You give me much hope, kid. Everyone, he’s nineteen (you said that in another post on this board, so it’s publically discloseable information   )Imagine what he’ll be capable of in ten or twenty years.

Message Edited by IshWishDish on 09-02-2006 08:10 PM

09-02-2006 09:09 PM

Re: What Needs To Happen
Regular Contributor

This is just plain feminist idiocy.

Like feminists, you falsely assume that men and women are equal to begin with. Sure we have equality of worth as persons, but we’re more concerned with FUNCTION here. And pussified men are just afraid to admit that men are more competent, capable and intelligent than women. Just like adults are more competent, capable and intelligent compared to children. The adults and the children are worth the same as people inherently. But when function comes into question, we must side with the adults. And likewise, when common sense comes into question, we must side with men.

Women are too stupid to understand this concept. They are like little children throwing a tantrum thinking that it’s their RIGHT to participate in everything, not realizing their participation in many matters leads to the overall failure of the project. Like building a house, you have to use qualified builders. Just because a child pouts and throws a tantrum doesn’t mean you should let it be in charge of hammering in the nails. The house will fall apart.

Women are concerned with their feelings of self-worth. This is why they want to be included in everything even though they’re mentally incapable of inclusion. They need to realize that their function is not to compete with men but to COMPLEMENT men in their function. Somebody needs to earn money and somebody needs to bake the pies that are purchased with that money. If everybody earns the money, nobody will be baking the pies.

Biitch, shut up with your whining and get back in that kitchen and bake the mothereffing pie. You’re not qualified to earn the money, the currently PC working environment is a testament to your nonsensical approach to the workplace that actually hinders productivity and you’re not suited for the male work environment which relies on reason not emotion.

Instead of putting an emotional investment into your self-esteem, how about emotionally investing in common sense for a change.

Message Edited by tellafriend on 09-05-2006 04:11 PM

09-03-2006 03:33 PM

Re: What Needs To Happen
Regular Contributor
LL, my understanding from an earlier thread if I recall correctly is that you’re of the age where you can open doors by uttering the magic words “I’m working on a school project relating to…”.

So, if you’ve got some time to put into it, I’d propose you choose one or maybe two at most of the topics off your list (preferably the ones which can be put succintly; #’s 2,3,4,11,12 would be the ones I’d pick from), type it all up nice and neat (leaving out the ALL CAPS), have someone proof-read it for spelling, grammar, and tone (try to make it “gender-neutral” and all equal-sounding, leaving out any words that might sound accusative or give anyone the reason to think you’re biased – i.e., play a little stupid), make copies, and then send them off to several representative organizations on both sides of the gender divide and see what response you get back is.

I wouldn’t want to prejudice anything by telling you what I think you’d find with a little experiment along these lines, but perhaps you could look for trends in the results and maybe even put it all together into an actual school-like project. Post back here in 5 weeks (10-10-06 is an easy date to remember) and we’ll see what you’ve got.

“The loudest, most strident voices calling women weak, stupid, and incapable of competing in the world at large are the feminists.” – zed the zen priest

09-05-2006 09:17 AM

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