Working Women Give Men a Break


Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – Working Women Give Men a Break

Working Women Give Men a Break
SF_Esquire
Visitor
SF_Esquire

It is outrageous to me that certain people don’t see the value that women can bring to the work force.  Women are a valuable untapped resource and women are great for business. However the sexes are different because women are the ones that have the babies, therefore they cannot fit snuggly into the current corporate paradigm during the entire span of their career(s).  Thinking outside the current corporate box with flex time, job sharing, telecommuting, onsite daycare and other family friendly policies are ways to tap into the resource of fully capable and able women who want to work and more than likely need to work outside the home.  Most families need two incomes to provide the lifestyle they want.  Why put a limit on the earning potential?  Furthermore, if there are two incomes, the traditional male only breadwinner lifestyle can be dismantled and the husband and the dad can spend more time with his wife and family and reduce the stress of having to work and earn as much as possible to pay for everything.  It would provide men with an opportunity to integrate all aspects of their lives together as employees, employers, fathers, and husbands.  More work/life integration is the key to family stability.

08-30-2006 01:04 PM

Re: Working Women Give Men a Break
toadman
Regular Contributor
toadman

Spoken like a true corporate career drone. You manage HR don’t you?

The article is not about working women but career women and why they make poor marriage material. There’s a difference.

08-30-2006 01:16 PM

Re: Working Women Give Men a Break
zacharias
Regular Contributor
zacharias
” Most families need two incomes to provide the lifestyle they want. Why put a limit on the earning potential?”

Because money is not the most important thing in life, nor is “lifestyle” if what that means is lots of shiny new toys that one is too busy earning the money to buy other toys to enjoy.

The old saying “money does not buy happiness” is as old as civilation. And as Paul McCartney is finding out, his old song “I don’t care too much for money, because money can’t buy me love” is far truer than even he thought when he wrote it.

Great, sucker women into dedicating their lives to wage slavery so they can do more shopping at the company store. I don’t have to “stop and smell the flowers”, because smelling the flowers is part of my travel plan.

08-30-2006 01:23 PM

Re: Working Women Give Men a Break
GenghisKhan
Regular Contributor
GenghisKhan
Another post that argues the value of the career women. Ladies, Noer isn’t arguing the value of career women per se. He’s arguing the value of career women as suitable marriage partners. In his view they make poor marriage partners as compared to housewives. Now, I understand your comments that career women bring in more income to a family, etc. And they are valid and convincing arguments. But ultimately, the decision to propose and initially enter into a marriage is done by men. If we don’t want to see the value of the career women as marriage partners, we don’t have to. And I understand that you maybe outraged by that, but ultimately its our decision on who to propose to not yours.

08-30-2006 01:42 PM

Re: Working Women Give Men a Break
SF_Esquire
Visitor
SF_Esquire

So quick to judge.  I was referring to career women and not the low level wage earners, yes you are right, there is a difference.  I’m saying that a woman with expertise and experience in business should be able to work within her desired career, earn decent money, and not have to sacrifice family time because the current business model does not allow for her to balance work and life.  Times are different, Beaver Cleaver doesn’t live here anymore.  Women with careers are here to stay so lets figure out the best ways to make this work: for business, for women, for men, and for the family.  Ultimately we all want the same thing, we are not adversaries. This can be a win-win.

FYI:  I am not a corporate drone nor in HR.  I am an attorney and an entrepreneur with my own employees, but that is beside the point.

08-30-2006 01:55 PM

Re: Working Women Give Men a Break
zacharias
Regular Contributor
zacharias
“But ultimately, the decision to propose and initially enter into a marriage is done by men. If we don’t want to see the value of the career women as marriage partners, we don’t have to. And I understand that you maybe outraged by that, but ultimately its our decision on who to propose to not yours.”

It is interesting that after all these years of prating about “eek-wallet-ee” and how women can do anything a man can do, the one thing they absolutely refuse to do is cross the lines in the dating game. Any woman can approach any man and make the first move and ask for the date. Any woman can court any man and try to entice him to marry her. Any woman could, theoretically court a man for a while and eventually propose.

So, why do women absolutely refuse to do this?

Because in so doing they would have to see that the male role in that whole game is the powerless one, and acknowledge the existance of sexual power – and the whole game of sexual harassment etc. would come crashing down.

If the sexes truly are interchangable, as the femmies claim, there is no reason why men have to continue to do all the **bleep** work of initiating relationships and carrying them forward to end up where the woman wants them.

Just like in everything else, women want to maintain all their old traditional privileges, while sharing equally or better in all the old traditional male roles.

To paraphrase the old Virginia Slims commercial – “You can’t have it BOTH ways, bayybeeee.”

Note to the inevitable anecdotes of “well, I am not like that” – no one is going to be fooled into thinking that women make the first move in anywhere close to 50% of the interactions which lead to dating and beyond.

And, note to career girls – if you want husbands, maybe you will need to climb down out of your Rapunzel towers, stop playing princess, and meet men half way.

That is what “eek-wallet-eee” was supposed to be about, wasn’t it?

08-30-2006 01:58 PM

Re: Working Women Give Men a Break
GenghisKhan
Regular Contributor
GenghisKhan
I’m saying that a woman with expertise and experience in business should be able to work within her desired career, earn decent money, and not have to sacrifice family time because the current business model does not allow for her to balance work and life.
____________________________________________________

I agree. But that’s your choice and you have every right to it. Just as a man has a choice to avoid career women as marriage partners.

Women with careers are here to stay so lets figure out the best ways to make this work: for business, for women, for men, and for the family.
____________________________________________________

Maybe that’s the problem. Maybe conflicting priorities are what make career women poor marriage choices. A company has a CEO, CFO, COO a board, etc. Every position has a specific task. What happens when one person tries to do all the work and all the tasks? Inefficiency, chaos and disorder.

Ultimately we all want the same thing, we are not adversaries. This can be a win-win.
____________________________________________________

I agree. Maybe it will come down to pairings of career men with housewives and career women with househusbands. Who knows.

08-30-2006 02:03 PM

Re: Working Women Give Men a Break
SF_Esquire
Visitor
SF_Esquire

Equality is about far more than dating and proposing. It is about equal pay and equal opportunities, and an even playing field. Women still earn less for equal work, the pay gap continues at about 70 cents to the man’s dollar.  We are less than 10% of CEOs on Fortune 500 Companies, less than 15% of women are on the boards of Fortune 500 Companies. We are approximately 15% of governors and mayors. Women are 51% of the US population and 47% of the labor force (mostly low level wage earners). 63% of the minimum wage earners are women.  I’m hoping for parity in pay and opportunities and equality in the system so that men and women can work together and equally for the good of business and the good of the family.  Both men and women have to step up and be change makers and suggest and implement more family friendly policies and lifestyles at work and home.

08-30-2006 02:29 PM

Re: Working Women Give Men a Break
zacharias
Regular Contributor
zacharias
“Equality is about far more than dating and proposing. It is about equal pay and equal opportunities, and an even playing field.”

Yes, indeed, it is about a level playing field – but that includes all the aspects of the game, not just the ones in which women perceive men as being favored.

If I run a race, and decide to sit out a few laps, I don’t cry that it is unfair when someone else finishes ahead of me. If I go to the gym 1 day per week, I don’t claim it is unfair that someone who goes every day is in better physical shape than I am.

Accomplishment takes work, it is not an entitlement. Equal opportunity means just that, it is not a guarantee of equal outcome.

When women in general start judging men entirely by some other criteria than their probable success as breadwinners, it is likely that men won’t feel as much need to succeed in that area to attract the attention and interest of high quality mates. Until then, men will continue to work as hard to make themselves attractive to the opposite sex as women do. Since all a woman’s increased income seems to do is shrink the pool of men she finds “eligible”, this dynamic is not likely to change until women find a way to totally restructure the world to suit their wants.

I think I’ll just go my own way until the dust all settles.

08-30-2006 02:37 PM

Re: Working Women Give Men a Break
SF_Esquire
Visitor
SF_Esquire

I would never suggest equal pay and equal opportunities for unequal work.  That is not what I suggested.  I agree accomplishments are what it takes.  Further, women are not so superficial, they are not all looking for a man with money. There has to be more than that to create a solid lasting partnership. Money can come and go.  However, if you are only looking for a women who has no earning potential and her only desire is to be a housewife, then yes, many men will run into gold-diggers, that is the catch and the risk you take.

08-30-2006 03:13 PM

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Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – Working Women Give Men a Break

Re: Working Women Give Men a Break
MartianBachelor
Regular Contributor
MartianBachelor

…It is about equal pay and equal opportunities, and an even playing field. Women still earn less for equal work, the pay gap continues at about 70 cents to the man’s dollar.

Oh geez, here we go again… change the subject, etc.

OK, if what you say is true then let’s you and I start a business (I’ve got the capital) that hires only women, pay them 80% of what a man would cost (an improvement for the women according to you), and we’d be the low-cost producers of whatever it was we made by a huge margin. No business which hired men could compete with us. With 50 or 75 million women in the workforce we’d end up ruling the world and being richer than Gates and Buffet put together.

This is so easy to figure out, but it hasn’t happened because the underlying premise is false.

We are less than 10% of CEOs on Fortune 500 Companies, less than 15% of women are on the boards of Fortune 500 Companies. We are approximately 15% of governors and mayors. Women are 51% of the US population…

And therefore constitute a politcal majority, poor babies.

Looking at all the men in business and politics and saying women don’t have any of the power or money is sorta like looking at all the blacks in the fields in the antebellum South and saying blacks have all the cotton!

The power of money comes not when it’s earned but when it’s spent, and women control 80% of the discretionary income in this country. That’s why just about all you see on TV are ads for products women buy, and shows women want to watch. Women are the Consumers-In-Chief. The CEO’s and Senators answer largely to them and their interests. Follow the money. The numbers you cited above conveniently ignore a huge transfer of wealth from male hands to female hands.

Under your framework it would be impossible for a male president (Clinton) to sign a law passed by a “male-dominated” Congress called the Violence Against Women Act, when in fact three times the number of men are victims of violent crime compared to women. Why is there no Violence Against Men Act, nor even any talk of same?

______________________________________________
“The loudest, most strident voices calling women weak, stupid, and incapable of competing in the world at large are the feminists.” – zed the zen priest

08-30-2006 03:17 PM

Re: Working Women Give Men a Break
HappyMom
Regular Contributor
HappyMom

MartianBachelor wrote:

Under your framework it would be impossible for a male president (Clinton) to sign a law passed by a “male-dominated” Congress called the Violence Against Women Act, when in fact three times the number of men are victims of violent crime compared to women. Why is there no Violence Against Men Act, nor even any talk of same?

And in some jurisdictions 98% conviction rate for men when it comes down to a he said/she said argument with no independent witnesses.

Ladies wake up! Feminism is socialism and it is shortchanging you and your children. Laws like this hurt our fathers, brothers, sons and husbands.

08-30-2006 03:23 PM

Re: Working Women Give Men a Break
SF_Esquire
Visitor
SF_Esquire

Try to stay on topic.

08-30-2006 03:33 PM

Re: Working Women Give Men a Break
zacharias
Regular Contributor
zacharias
“Try to stay on topic.”

Try to loosen up. I didn’t realize this was your personal board. I was under the impression that everyone here had as much right to post what they wanted as you did.

08-30-2006 03:39 PM

Re: Working Women Give Men a Break
PatriarchVerlch
Regular Contributor
PatriarchVerlch

This isn’t communism ladies. Secretaries should not be paid the same as a man that riskes his life climbing telephone poles all day.

Want that type of equality? There are still commie countries in the world, where lawyers make the same as garbage collectors, the lawyers are about as productive as dead ants.

But hey, a feminist dream, socialism, everybody is poor, divorce rampant, fatherlessness, a breading ground for criminals, lawlessness. Sounds like a great country to live in.

The .80 cents on the dollar BS gives feminism a reason it thinks it needs to be around.

What sucks is once as a younger worker we had a job to carry construction material up a hill, there was 3 tons of material, me and a woman. I think I carried 2.7 tons of it, and we both made the same amount of $$$$. I was pissed. By my calculations it would have taken her 3 days to do what I did in two hours. It cost them $20.00, for her it would have been $300.00. What’s math to feminists. For that matter what is common sense?

Women have been proving for the last 30 years that men have been right for the last 30 centuries!
http://www.verlch.blogspot.com

08-30-2006 05:20 PM

Re: Working Women Give Men a Break
Annabel25
Visitor
Annabel25

Somehow, when we refer to “career women” I don’t think we are talking about carrying steel bars up a hill here.

I would suggest that most office jobs do not require a level of physical strength that is above and beyond any person. Unless your bicep finds it hard to cope with the difficulty of picking up a pencil every day, that is.

08-30-2006 05:26 PM

Re: Working Women Give Men a Break
zacharias
Regular Contributor
zacharias
“Somehow, when we refer to “career women” I don’t think we are talking about carrying steel bars up a hill here.

I would suggest that most office jobs do not require a level of physical strength that is above and beyond any person. Unless your bicep finds it hard to cope with the difficulty of picking up a pencil every day, that is.”

Which explains a lot of the historic employment figures when “jobs” were far more likely to involve picking up steel bars, or other heavy items, than a pencil.

08-30-2006 05:55 PM

Re: Working Women Give Men a Break
tellafriend
Regular Contributor
tellafriend

Yet another idiot woman who just doesn’t get it.

Women don’t contribute as much to the workforce as they have damaged it. And like an idiot woman you miss the point. This isn’t about women not working, it’s about “career” women. Women SHOULD get off their lazy fat asses and work. They should cook , they should clean, they should make dinner, they should take care of the kids, they should make sure the house is in working order.

Women are mistaken when they think they can have it all. This is the idiotic mentality of a childish woman who wants to have her cake and eat it too. She wants to be everything and have everything, not realizing that there is always an opportunity cost. In this case, they cost themselves their own happiness when they try to compete with men. Give it a rest Oprah.

08-30-2006 06:35 PM

Re: Working Women Give Men a Break
PolishKnight
Contributor
PolishKnight
Let’s take this apart:
“It is outrageous to me that certain people don’t see the value that women can bring to the work force. Women are a valuable untapped resource and women are great for business.”

So then women managers and owners could hire these women at a premium and clean up _if_ this was true.

Let’s face it: You don’t care whether career women are really valuable or not and would support forcing employers to hire them even if they were less effecient than men.

“However the sexes are different because women are the ones that have the babies, therefore they cannot fit snuggly into the current corporate paradigm during the entire span of their career(s). Thinking outside the current corporate box with flex time, job sharing, telecommuting, onsite daycare and other family friendly policies are ways to tap into the resource of fully capable and able women who want to work and more than likely need to work outside the home.”

So “thinking outside the box” means creating a “family friendly” environment that patronizes women while men just work their butts off.

“Most families need two incomes to provide the lifestyle they want.”

So single women shouldn’t become unwed mothers then.

So how do women in the workplace save society money if they require massive welfare subsidies and child-support orders to keep them out of poverty or to help them work? Men do all of this for a fraction of the price.

“Why put a limit on the earning potential? Furthermore, if there are two incomes, the traditional male only breadwinner lifestyle can be dismantled and the husband and the dad can spend more time with his wife and family and reduce the stress of having to work and earn as much as possible to pay for everything.”

So there’s nothing stopping career women from dating enlightened but non-high income producing men.

There’s plenty of those.

This is a total fib and you know it. What you really mean by dismantling the two parent family is massive subsidies that punish two parent families and working men and reward single mothers.

Your dream works out to mean that women should get handheld at work and treated like Marie Antoinette with all kinds of goodies and “flex time” while men work 90 hour work weeks to pay for it all. This is so men can have more time with their kids when a career woman supports them which we know happens about as often as someone wins superlotto.

Thanks, but no thanks.

“It would provide men with an opportunity to integrate all aspects of their lives together as employees, employers, fathers, and husbands. More work/life integration is the key to family stability.”

Guess what? NOBODY is buying this lie anymore that giving women everything at men’s expense is going to make men’s life better.

In the meantime, things are working out:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110008831

08-30-2006 07:40 PM

Re: Working Women Give Men a Break
PolishKnight
Contributor
PolishKnight
“Women are mistaken when they think they can have it all. This is the idiotic mentality of a childish woman who wants to have her cake and eat it too.”

I don’t know if anyone else ever said it before me, but I coined the phrase that feminism is the notion of women aborting their baby, and having it too.

Essentially, women should get preferential treatment in hiring, work fewer hours for “family friendly” time for equal work, get employer subsidized daycare, and welfare for women who just decide that work isn’t so fun after all.

Men, well, they get to be supported by such career women.

Pretty funny eh?

Naw, we all know what the deal is for men: work 80 hours a week to pay “child” support (you don’t think the woman’s income is to support something as boring as children, do you? That’s mall money). Unless the job goes to a woman in which case it’s straight to jail or the streets he goes.

Fortunately, the whole house of cards is slowly coming down as birthrates for such women plummet.

08-30-2006 08:37 PM

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