Religious Feminism


Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – Religious Feminism

Religious Feminism
reclaff
Contributor
reclaff

Message Edited by reclaff on 07-30-2007 04:08 PM

09-25-2006 11:32 AM

Re: Religious Feminism
porkchops38
Regular Contributor
porkchops38

reclaff wrote:
Feminists maintain that Christianity was invented or devised as a means to maintain the patriarchy and male domination of women. I gather religious feminism seeks to alter this ideology by a more gender-neutral or female perception of God.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_feminism
Interesting that the feminists never seem to mention that the patriarchs who created a male image of God also created a male image of Satan.
Do the religious feminists wish to claim their half of the devil while they claim their half of the Creator?
Not likely.

I am aware that the bible uses the male gender in describing God, such as, “In the beginning, He made them male and female…” where “He” refers to God. However, I was not aware that the bible refers to Satan in the male gender? Do you have any proof for your assertion that bible portrays Satan in a male image? I don’t claim to be a biblical expert, but I don’t recall the Bible assigning any gender to Satan, so for all we know Satan could be feminine since every other characteristic of Satan in the bible is the antithesis of God in the bible. In other words, since God in the bible is decribed in the masculine, then Satan (being the antithesis of God) must be feminine.

09-25-2006 11:47 AM

Re: Religious Feminism
dumbbroad
Regular Contributor
dumbbroad

“Do you have any proof for your assertion that bible portrays Satan in a male image?

MAR 3:26 – And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end
has come.
2CO 2:11  in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware
of his schemes.

09-25-2006 12:06 PM

Re: Religious Feminism
reclaff
Contributor
reclaff

Message Edited by reclaff on 07-30-2007 04:09 PM

09-25-2006 12:16 PM

Re: Religious Feminism
dumbbroad
Regular Contributor
dumbbroad

“But as long as the religious feminists are now carving matters out 50/50, how about claiming your half of Satan, dumbbroad?  ;-)”

I’m not really a religious person myself!

09-25-2006 12:19 PM

Re: Religious Feminism
reclaff
Contributor
reclaff

Message Edited by reclaff on 07-30-2007 04:09 PM

09-25-2006 12:22 PM

Re: Religious Feminism
porkchops38
Regular Contributor
porkchops38
Thanks dumbbroad, I knew you had to good for something like looking up bible verses for me. Now look up for me in the book of daniel the verse where it mentions that Satan does not “desire the company of women”, does that mean that Satan is a queer male? I mean if your assertion is that satan is defined in the masculine, and then the book of daniel says that satan “does not desire the accompany of women”, then satan must be queer, heh?

09-25-2006 12:49 PM

Re: Religious Feminism
dumbbroad
Regular Contributor
dumbbroad

I don’t even know if Satan exists, let alone what sort of equipment he’s got going on below the belt. I was just responding to another post requesting Bible verses that refer to Satan in the masculine.

09-25-2006 12:55 PM

Re: Religious Feminism
PatriarchVerlch
Regular Contributor
PatriarchVerlch

reclaff wrote:
Thanks dumbbroad.  I am not an expert on such matters by any means, but I believe Satan is a fallen angel, and all angels are male.  They are guardians and/or messengers from heaven.

But as long as the religious feminists are now carving matters out 50/50, how about claiming your half of Satan, dumbbroad?  😉

It’s interesting aswell that the scripture says this:

[28] And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
What are the liberals calling for? Population control, sending women to work (working women don’t have time for children), sounds like a play right of of the devils playbook. Gain control over whole earth, than get them not to reproduce. In Russia 800,000 more people died than were born. Germany is not producing babies, Japan is in decline.

Population reduction is a secular humanist goal.

Women have been proving for the last 30 years that men have been right for the last 30 centuries!
http://www.verlch.blogspot.com

09-25-2006 01:48 PM

Re: Religious Feminism
MartianBachelor
Regular Contributor
MartianBachelor
…since God in the bible is decribed in the masculine,…

Remember this wasn’t all originally written in anything approximating American English.

I’ve seen one argument about how in going through multiple/successive translations involving some languages that have gendered nouns and some that don’t, where there was a somewhat arbitrary choice of words (because that’s what translation is all about), that the original intended genders have gotten lost and/or scrambled. In other words, translation is often an irreversible process. I think the author of the argument was claiming from this line of reasoning and other evidence that the trinity was really meant to be about the father, mother, and son.

______________________________________________
“The loudest, most strident voices calling women weak, stupid, and incapable of competing in the world at large are the feminists.” – zed the zen priest

09-25-2006 02:10 PM

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Reader Response to “Don’t Marry Career Women” – Religious Feminism

Re: Religious Feminism
khankrumthebulg
Regular Contributor
khankrumthebulg
Der Bibel ueberstezung aus Martin Luther. The translations of the New Testament in the Elbefelder, Reformierte (Ulrich Zwingli), Evangelish (protestant) refer to Der Teufel (The Devil) as he. It is not just English. The Latin Vulgate does as Well. I have not looked at my Septugiat (Greek Interlinear) translation.

Equity Christianity is a movement to push Feminism in Christianity a heresy. I would suggest it is part of the Apostacy referred to in the New Testament. Men in the US are abandoning Churches which have become Feminized and Secular. The Episcipol Church is in serious trouble in the US and on a major decline. It has become a Gay and Secular Church.

By spiritual practice I am a Nichiren Buddhist. Formerly Mormon, raised Roman Catholic. Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo

09-25-2006 02:18 PM

Re: Religious Feminism
PatriarchVerlch
Regular Contributor
PatriarchVerlch

MartianBachelor wrote:
…since God in the bible is decribed in the masculine,…

Remember this wasn’t all originally written in anything approximating American English.

I’ve seen one argument about how in going through multiple/successive translations involving some languages that have gendered nouns and some that don’t, where there was a somewhat arbitrary choice of words (because that’s what translation is all about), that the original intended genders have gotten lost and/or scrambled. In other words, translation is often an irreversible process. I think the author of the argument was claiming from this line of reasoning and other evidence that the trinity was really meant to be about the father, mother, and son.

That’s a religious feminist dream to have a gender neutral bible. They tried with the living bible taking He out of it 3,000 times. There are even worse translations that I can’t even remember what they were.

The bible clearly says this: Man was created in the image of God, and woman is created in the image of man.

“…[the man] is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man…. In the Lord, however, man is not independent of woman, nor is woman independent of man. For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.”

Think of all the arguments, divorce and separation that could be avoided if women read and understood what was said since the beginning of the formed earth.

Women have been proving for the last 30 years that men have been right for the last 30 centuries!
http://www.verlch.blogspot.com

09-25-2006 02:38 PM

Re: Religious Feminism
MartianBachelor
Regular Contributor
MartianBachelor
“That’s a religious feminist dream to have a gender neutral bible.”

I’m not sure that’s what he was driving at, and I’m certainly not defending the theory, only reporting it.

If I recall, he was trying to draw some parallels with both the three Graces, Fates, and Furies, and the three Greek goddesses (virgin/maiden, wife/mother, crone/grandma – who represented the three distinct phases of a woman’s life) of ancient Greek mythology, and was suggesting that early Christianity, with its three male gods, was intentionally designed by the translators who started from the original Aramaic to be an alternative to and in opposition to the Greek/pagan model. Or maybe it was just an accident of the translation process. I don’t think there was any nefarious or subversive purpose intended, but you never know.

Message Edited by MartianBachelor on 09-25-200609:08 PM

______________________________________________
“The loudest, most strident voices calling women weak, stupid, and incapable of competing in the world at large are the feminists.” – zed the zen priest

09-25-2006 03:25 PM

Re: Religious Feminism
Mamonaku
Regular Contributor
Mamonaku
Thoughts on Women’s Ordination * Long *

http://tinyurl.com/rqxge

A good article from the Orthodox Christian perspective.


Thoughts on Women’s Ordination
Fr. John Morris

“… Feminists and their supporters have demanded and received changes in the English language, which, like Orwell’s “Newspeak,” more correctly express the prejudices of their movement. Thus, it is no longer acceptable to say “mankind.” Instead one must say “humankind.” A postman is now a letter carrier. A fireman is now a firefighter and even clergymen are now clergypersons. In schools, young girls learn to be assertive and to reject traditional feminine qualities while boys are urged to “get in touch with their feminine side.” In every place where radical feminists have gained a footing, their ideas have overwhelmed traditional beliefs in many different ways including religion. Not only have feminists demanded and received admission of women to the ordained ministry, they have also successfully persuaded many Christians to redefine their understanding of God to conform to the feminist ideology.

Thus, some have rejected as patriarchal,and therefore suspect, the ancient Biblical understanding of God as “Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Instead, some have now replaced the ancient Trinitarian language and now call God Creator, Redeemer and Sanctifier.Since the adoption of feminism is surrender to the forces of political correctness, it is only natural that those Christians who have done so should change adopting a pro- choice position on abortion and even affirming the morality of homosexual relationships.

If it is necessary to redefine God to conform to a secular ideology such as feminism, it is necessary to redefine everything else, thereby
inventing a new, politically correct, feminized religion that only has a superficial similarity to traditional Christianity. In almost every case, one of the first steps in the feminization of religion is the ordination of women.
During the last few decades virtually ever Christian group, with the exception of a few more conservative Protestant bodies, the Roman Catholic Church and, of course, the Orthodox Church, has yielded to pressure from feminists and has admitted women to the ordained ministry. Significantly, the secular media has fallen into line with feminist ideology and speaks with derision about those Christian groups which still adhere to the ancient prohibition against the ordination of women. However, it is important to understand that the ordination of women is only part of a process that eventually leads to a rejection of Biblical and Traditional Christianity in favor of a new feminized and ultimately heretical religion…

… Although it may not satisfy those who seek a rational explanation, the historical practice of the Church may very well be the best argument against the ordination of women. One might ask, if it is wrong to deny women ordination, why would the Church, which is led by the Holy Spirit to manifest the will of God in society, be guilty of oppression against women by denying them their rightful place in the ranks of the clergy? Christ chose no women Apostles. The Church has never allowed women to become priests or bishops. Indeed, those few “Christian” groups in antiquity that allowed some form of women’s ordination were far outside the mainstream of Christianity and were associated with Gnosticism and/or some other major heresy. That should be enough to convince any faithful Orthodox Christian that it would be the height of arrogance for some in the twenty-first century to claim they are qualified to declare that the Church has been wrong for almost 2,000 years.

Indeed, if it is an injustice to deny women ordination, why did not Christ Himself set the example by choosing women Apostles? Neither Christ nor his followers had the slightest inhibition against speaking out against the injustices of their time. If the denial of ordination were an injustice, one would expect that Christ, who criticized so many of the practices of the religious establishment of His day, would have set the example for his followers by naming at least one woman Apostle. St. John Chrysostom, who died in exile because he spoke out against the excesses of the Empress, would not have hesitated to demand that the Church end any oppression of women…

…Therefore, the fact that God has led His Church to restrict ordination to the priesthood solely to men for almost 2,000 years should be reason enough to continue the practice of the Church and to reject the demands of those influenced by feminism to begin ordaining women to the priesthood

Although it is risky to attempt to explain the priesthood or any other mystery of the Faith through human reason, one can find many flaws in the argument in favor of the ordination of women to the priesthood. The first flaw is that Christ chose only men to be Apostles because He was limited to the social prejudices of the time in which he lived. Our Lord did not hesitate to violate the social norms of His society in His treatment of women. For example, in the story of Mary and Martha Christ favors Mary, who refuses to be limited by the traditional prejudice against women as unworthy or incapable of intellectual activity.

Thus, instead of serving the men as Martha, who represents the traditional role of women in first century Jewish society, Mary joins the men as they listen to the teaching of Christ. Again, at the well, Christ breaks Jewish tradition and discusses serious theological matters not only with a woman, but with a Samaritan woman. Finally, contrary to all standards of ancient Jewish society, the first witnesses of the Resurrection are not men, but women. Thus, since Christ broke radically with the culture in which He lived by elevating women to a level unknown in ancient Jewish society, it would have been no great scandal for Him to choose women Apostles. However, He did not choose women Apostles, and for that reason alone, the Church which considers its priesthood an outgrowth of the Apostolic office, should not contradict Our Lord by ordaining women to the episcopate and the priesthood.

Some Feminist theologians argue that the Church began to oppress women because it perverted the original teachings of Christ by adopting the views of the secular society of that time towards women. Indeed, some feminists have created a mythological view of early Church history, which reflects their politically correct ideas rather than serious historical research. According to this argument, the advent of the episcopacy and orthodox doctrine were means to impose the authority of men over women. However, there is virtually no historical proof to support these arguments, aside from a few quotations from heretical groups such as the Gnostics or the Montanists…

…Yet, by trying to revise the Christian religion to conform to a secular movement like women’s liberation, they themselves are guilty of surrendering to the fads of the secular culture. Thus, instead of the Church exercising its prophetic role by proclaiming the will of God to a sinful society, they reverse this role by demanding that the Church change its beliefs to conform to secular society…

… Despite the claims of some radical feminists, Orthodox Christianity has many positive symbols for feminists. As has already been mentioned, the Church honors a woman, the Blessed Virgin Mary, as first among the Saints, and pays special honor to some other women, giving them the title “equal to the Apostles.” St. Ephraim and other East Syrian saints refer to the Holy Spirit as feminine. The Holy Scriptures and other expressions of the Tradition of the Church also portray the Church as feminine. Indeed, such images as the Church as the bride of Christ, and the Church as the mother of the faithful, are common in Orthodoxy. The Bible is filled with the image of Christ as the bridegroom and His people, the Church, as His bride…

…For two thousand years, one of the requirements of the Church for ordination to the priesthood is maleness.

Thus those who approach the priesthood must approach it on God’s and His Church’s terms, not their own terms or those of a secular ideology such as Feminism…

… Radical feminism distorts not only the priesthood but also the very nature of humanity by failing to recognize that there are real differences between men and women. A man cannot be a mother, nor a mother a father. By attempting to blur the distinction between the genders, the feminists are distorting the very essence of human nature. They also fail to understand that the roles of the different sexes are complementary and follow the plan of creation designed by God. To act as if men and women are the same in every way is to deny one of the most basic facts of human existence. Because men and women are different, God has decreed as we know through the practice of the Church that men and women should have different, but complementary roles in the Church. That women and men are different and occupy different positions within the Church does not mean that one is superior to the other. This is one of the most basic flaws of the radical feminist argument. They fail to recognize that equality does not require sameness. Men and women can play different roles in the leadership of the Church and still remain equal to one another in every way.

However, perhaps the most important argument against the ordination of women is the results of women’s ordination in those Christian groups who have surrendered to the pressure of secular society to ordain women. A priest is not simply a performer or leader; a priest is an image of Christ who in turn is an image of God. Thus, a priest is an icon or symbol of Christ, especially during the Divine Liturgy. Because symbols have real meaning, if the symbol is changed, that which is symbolized is also changed. Since a priest represents Christ, who is God, if the priest becomes a priestess, the image of God also changes. This will inevitably lead to a redefinition, or to use their term, re-imaging of God…

…Virtually every Protestant group that has decided to ordain women has to one degree or another begun to reject Biblical language and images of God in favor of images more acceptable to feminist theology.

Thus, God is no longer Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but becomes Creator, Redeemer, and Sanctifier. On the surface this may seem only a change of terms, but actually, it is much more. It represents a radically different way of looking at God. The new politically correct Trinity is a rejection of divinely revealed language about God and thereby a rejection of the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures. It is also heretical because it blurs the important distinction between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Father also creates, redeems and sanctifies, but so does the Son and the Holy Spirit. In reality, the feminized Trinity is actually a form of the ancient heresy of Sabellianism, which portrays Father, Son and Holy Spirit as merely different phases of God rather than different but united persons.

Not only have the feminists redefined God to accommodate their ideology, they have begun to redefine the entire Christian religion in the light of feminism. Thus, they place their secular ideology above the divine revelation of God in the Holy Scriptures and the other manifestations of Holy Tradition. This is the ultimate secularization of the Gospel, because they have subordinated the divinely inspired Scriptures and other manifestations of Holy Tradition to a secular ideology.

Indeed, anyone who has watched the efforts of followers of feminism and its allied ideologies to redefine American Protestantism sees not prayerful contemplation in an effort to discern the will of God, but the very worst aspects of an organized political campaign by one group to gain power over another. Thus, feminists eventually beat down their opponents because they are more persistent and effective political organizers than the opponents.

Borrowing methods from the Civil Rights Movement, these campaigns include rallies, demonstrations, intimidation and civil disobedience. Eventually, although originally a minority, they are able to prevail because the leadership of most American Protestant groups lacks the courage to dismiss or remove anyone who rejects traditional beliefs and practices. Indeed, today it is unacceptable to accuse someone of heresy, much less discipline them or remove them from their office in the Church. This attitude has led to a complete breakdown of anything like traditional Christianity among many American Protestants and even some Roman Catholics.

Thus, the ordination of women is not simply a matter of making a woman a priest. It is much more; it is the ultimate destruction of the Christian Faith. This is because the ordination of women requires the rejection of the clear practice of the Church and thereby of the Holy Scriptures and other manifestations of Holy Tradition. It is also because the movement to ordain women does not come from within the Christian community, but is actually the subordination of the Faith to the secular ideology of Feminism. Once one rationalizes the rejection of something as central to the Faith as the nature of the priesthood, it then becomes easier to reject anything else in the Tradition of the Church that followers of that ideology find offensive. If one takes it upon oneself to decide which beliefs and practices of the Church are acceptable to modern society, the result is the chaos that has engulfed American Protestantism and has even made its influence felt in Roman Catholic circles.

Thus, if one decides that the Church has been wrong to deny the priesthood to women, one might also decide that the Church has been wrong in other beliefs and practices. Indeed, this is precisely what has happened. Despite centuries of opposition to abortion by Christians, almost every major American Protestant group that has ordained women has also adopted a “pro-choice” position on abortion. Recently, the Episcopal Church elected as a bishop a man who left his wife and children to live in a homosexual relationship with another man. There can be no doubt that not only the Holy Scriptures, but also the Fathers and the Ecumenical Councils consider homosexual acts immoral. Indeed, there is also no doubt that until a very few years ago, every Christian group, Protestant, Orthodox, or Roman Catholic, taught that homosexual sexual acts are a fundamental violation of the moral law of God.

However, it is also true that until fairly recently, all Christian groups agreed that only men could be ordained. If Christians can decide that the unanimous opinion of Christians throughout the centuries is wrong on one issue, the ordination of women, it is logical to assume that Christians can also be wrong on other issues such as abortion and homosexuality, especially since the same feminists who demand women’s ordination are also frequently sympathetic to so-called gay liberation. Thus, because they see everything in the light of feminism, they no longer accept Traditional images of God. They redefine the Holy Trinity in completely unbiblical language because of the dictates of their ideology…

That is one major reason why every American Protestant group that has begun to ordain women has also begun to feel pressure from many of the same people who successfully campaigned for women’s ordination to recognize homosexual and lesbian relationships as equal to heterosexual marriage. Thus, the ordination of women to the priesthood is not simply the acceptance of women priests. It leads to a complete distortion of the Christian Faith and the creation of a new religion that has only a very superficial resemblance to any form of traditional Christianity.”

Sums it all up, as far as I’m concerned.

Religious Feminism is Heresy. Period Point blank.

09-25-2006 04:43 PM

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